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I think the softest parts to Dragonflight can easily be forgiven given the context of its development. I have to imagine that between what was going on behind-the-scenes and the rough era of shadowlands, a more "wholesome" expansion was more enjoyable to create than something more doom-and-gloom
And now that they had that more positive expansion, the team is in a healthier position to make a MUCH darker story in War Within and beyond.
though the bigger conversation that needs to be had is why people are so picky about the themes in Warcraft. It's a huge universe, with infinite potential. We have war crimes and poop quests in the same questlines, as its core Warcraft is extremely versatile.
There’s no denying that on the surface of modern WoW it is Disneyfied and childish.
Warcraft lore is what you make of it, if you delve deep and understand the themes on a more fundamental level thanks to people like you that gives deeper insight the story is great.
I agree the lore is what you make of it by digging into what all the events really mean it isn’t all that soft but on the surface level you get just playing and interacting with the game it is pretty difficult to take seriously when you’ve got weird little voices popping up left and right, the vicious animals all have big cutesy eyes and these precious little green critters start floating around your head if you fly through the wrong area. It really just doesn’t have much grit at all anymore.
A lot of people dont realize the best kind of villains in stories are the ones you can empathize with. Part of what made Arthas so compelling as a character is it asks you the questions "What would you have done in his shoes?" Thats not to say he did the right thing, but as we learn more about him, we begin to understand why things happened the way they did. Also, I would argue: If a game like WoW's lore never truely mattered, then can we really call it an RPG anymore? Even souls-like games have some level of lore, even if its not directly conveyed. Lore is the driving force as to why we engage with the world like we do.
Asmongold hasnt played the game in almost 10 years, his opinion is pretty dead just like his takes on social issues. The issue people are having with the story is that it doesnt seem brutal enough, everything they are doing is based on how you FEEL and there is very little actual action. I do think it is getting soft from an outwardly standpoint and tha is important because that is what got everyone into WoW and the franchise. The obviously grim and bloodlust that the game use to have. Now its a hug fest and I say this as someone who deeply follows the lore of the game.
I just do not like how they replaced certain pictures with bowels of fruit, censored things, the lack of blood and gore, and violence. Foresaken always had the best quests as well. They do not go near dark enough anymore this is with reading the quests. I also hate that they did not go through with the Alexstraza, Grim Batol scenario. The players should have to go through that and understand what she went through.
I'm genuinely into the story, but it is still true that current Warcraft is so far from why I originally liked Warcraft. It is not mainly about the story but the general vibe and looks. But it affects the story as well in a negative way.
But just as with Star Wars I've eventually accepted that they ruined my childhood worlds/franchises and moved on in a sense. Fortunately I can still keep playing with the badass Warcraft titles such as Warcraft2 or 3.
I still like the speculations part of the WoW story, but I cannot imagine coming back now to WoW.
Dismissing Asmongolds opinion by proclaiming that he doesn't know the lore of WoW is the most asinine take I've ever heard. Seeing as it's also the opinion of people like Bellular and the majority of WoW players that aren't closet homosexuals.
You raise some good points Pyromancer.
A vocal minority (because I can't imagine the "general masses" want this) are asking for their WoW Infinity War/Empire Strikes Back. They wanna end an xpac feeling like they gave it their all and still lost, and to have the following xpac start with players on the backfoot. I really hope Xal and Iridikron can accomplish that type of ending, at least by the time Midnight drops, because the comeback story would be such a high.
Idk man, all I know is that I used to get chills from the cinematic trailers – even before I was seriously into the game and understood what was going on – and now I don't. As an RP/PvPer, I really did like the idea of factions as a world-building and engagement tool. Roleplay has very much died on multiple realms (I remember when WrA and Emerald Dream were Full servers, and now their populations are just High), and I attribute that to continuous fumbling of characters, lackluster world-building, and the unexciting end to storylines that engaged people and gave them a sense of pride/badassery. It's also difficult to create stories that keep RP guilds alive when there isn't something that causes drama (i.e., MoP when orc guilds were complete dicks IC to non-orcs in Orgrimmar on WrA, which arguably was not a good thing, but it made the city more active than I'd ever seen it).
Either way, I stopped following the lore and RPing seriously when they kept changing things around with the details on the orc clans in Warlords. I fell in love with a lot of them based on the way their early original stories were told. I understand that has to happen and things have to change for the game to grow, but I don't enjoy investing time and energy into learning all I can about something only for it to change at the whim of an author or game developer. It feels pointless.
I keep thinking about Baldur's Gate III, which has meaningful storytelling that has its highs/wholesome content that doesn't feel forced, and it has its lows/absolutely terrible consequences. Nothing in WoW feels that way anymore and I don't think I'm the one who changed.
ETA: I think it's worth recognizing that the same team that wrote Dragonflight is writing TWW & the same kinds of people are still overseeing the game. Just because Metzen is back doesn't mean a lot will change, nor does it mean we'll return to form. It's like hoping for a sequel to WoW. It would be the same game with the same problems because it would be the same company developing the game.
This thumbnail is one the best EVER MADE. EVER!! Especially with that NO! HAHAHA
About the lore, to me it's the packaging and the woke vibe and all of the other weird stuff that ruined it for me.
Before there was great stuff that was easy to see understand. Since Legion there's been so many weird decisions that just no. Redeeming Illidan? Really. That did not work for me at all haha
Anyways, have fun all. Things will get better in TWW that's for sure
What we really need, cinematic wise, is more action set pieces to balance out the quiet moments of conversation. Something like the fight between The Lich King and Sylvannus in spectacle. They are needed in order to hype up the fights with these antagonists later on in a raid or a dungeon. Its all about show don't tell. For a long time in the questlines we got to see just a taste at how powerful Ashara was in the story, for those who knew of how much of a powerhouse she was, it was a perfect way to have people looking forward to the day when they would properly go toe to toe with her.
tl;dr: The events in the world would be terrifying if you were just some random orc or human in Azeroth.
My rule of thumb: Imagine that you are some random civilian in either the alliance or the horde that would be old enough to be alive through everything from Vanilla all the way to now. (I could be wrong but that would be like 30 to 40 ish years right?) Imagine how you would feel hearing about all of these cataclysmic events happening. It would be terrifying, sure you know you have "the heroes" but you wouldn't know for sure that they would win. This to me especially applies to the Horde with how rocky the Horde's leadership history has been, (I'm American so I would use this analogy) imagine if the president retired, then their VP took the mantle and complete turned the US into a conquering/war faring society. Then he dies, then we have peace for a couple years. then he dies and the new guy steps up and is being manipulated by some sort of other political entity and just dips. That would potentially destroy a country.
I’d say soft is an understatement. Seems like a game for children nowadays.
Whilst I appreciate the nuances of this conversation, I do think he has some valid points about how the story and world is presented at a surface level. As a new player in Dragonflight I found the theme to be incredibly safe, boring and sanitised. It didn't have much action or grit, and it definitely didn't have any cool factor. Having no experience of previous expansions, it did not live up to the moniker of 'World of Warcraft'.
I do however disagree with him profoundly on emotions. I come from FFXIV, and Shadowbringers and Endwalker were no less dark and compelling stories for having strong emotional moments. The problem in my eyes is two part, 1) the execution in WoW is embarrassingly bad, it's like watching a children's cartoon, and 2) they do not successfully balance these scenes out with more exciting action cinematics. This has seemingly resulted in a very boring story in which characters monologue to eachother about feelings endlessly, but there is nothing to really get excited about.
The most Disney thing to me is the voice acting of the niffen. It does feel a bit out of place in WoW. But it's not terrible.
My favorite Pixar movie is the one where a small band of adventures travel into a magic vault full of treasures. Battling different kinds of dragons along the way, When they reach the end it turns out they get to mercy kill a dragon whos been corrupted by arcane magic. The real kicker though, its right in front of the spirit of his mother. So she gets a front row seat to the whole thing as he shouts in agony till the end. Such a wholesome good family friend story to watch with kids.
There might be dark psychological stories going on but the game lacks it's punch/crescendo. I want to see Alexstrasza get a "Darth Vader hallway scene" after what happened to her in Grim Batol. Where are our cinematics with characters like Grom facing down Mannoroth or Deathwing landing on Stormwind? I feel like the game is missing it's larger than life heroic moments/characters.
The dismantling of the factions has also been a major downer for me. There's nothing quite like being in a crowd of nerds shouting "For the Horde!" or "For the Alliance!" and nowadays everyone is friends and making nice with each other. I honestly don't think I even saw a single Horde or Alliance banner on the Dragon Isles. And don't get me wrong I'm not saying that we need to be in constant faction wars, but I'd like to see a cold war/rivalry and skirmish level conflict restored. I miss charging into battle with my faction behind me facing down impossible odds. That simply does not happen in DF because the story is focused on the Dragon's PTSD or whatever family issue they're sorting out.
5:45 Give me a cinematic of someone being forced to serve and then making a heroic sacrifice to break themselves or someone else free (Grom Hellscream) or taking down their slave master. Think about the 54th MA charging Fort Wagner in Glory and give me that in WoW. Closest we got is Anduin breaking free of the Jailor which was good until they promptly shit all over Arthas in the 2nd half of that cinematic.
6:40 Strawman, we used to have badass characters (or big sweaty men as Asmon would call them) like Illidan, Garrosh, Varian, Grom, pre-Cata Thrall, pre-BfA Sylvanas etc. Blizzard can and used to tell badass stories about other characters, heroes and villains. Retail is severely lacking this type of character right now but with Alleria, Anduin and Thrall leading the charge in TWW there is opportunity for this to return.
7:45 The sword was not close to that and this, I think, is a development issue. The sword would have felt a hell of a lot more like a loss if it landed on Orgrimmar or Stormwind but Blizzard doesn't want to deal with the implications of a world changing loss that might require something like a Cata style revamp. Instead the sword lands on a zone that hasn't been relevant since 2006 and it doesn't feel as nearly as impactful as it could have. I hope this changes with the World Soul Saga.
Background music towards the end is killing me dude😂😂😂
As beautiful as WoW’s graphics are, they really don’t help convey a darker story.
They do look DreamWorks-like.
I think the community just wants some really cool fight scenes with swords, all the comments I see complaining about this usually have the sentiment of “it just used to be about dudes hitting each other with swords y’know” which is like Warcraft 1 level of depth, but it’s there so, y’know maybe have Anduin or someone have a really kickass sword fight with someone for a 3 minute cutscene, revenge of the sith style
Or they just want Warhammer levels of violence in this idk, Arthas 2 would be pretty fuckin funny as an outside observer waiting to see if I should jump in at War Within
I think the only reason it perceived as soft is because wow lost its High fantasy status, you'd think after seeing Warcraft cinematics wow would be very high fantasy souls typey feel to it at least thematically, but it lost it, that's it.
i don't see the warcraft in world of warcraft. I'm sure there is dark lore but you don't see any of it anymore. its all in a book. the game is worthless for story telling. I shouldn't need to read a book to get the whole picture in the first place. it should be in the game. if you need a case study on why it doesn't work just look at destiny with codex entries. yes the lore is there. however you don't see or hear any of the relevant stuff in quests. take star wars and cut to black every time there is a potential lightsaber fight. that's what it is like.
I think the problem is that wow is consistantly bad at writing dialouge and much much worse at directing voicing for it. This has always been a problem since classic released. The more recent expansions have been escalating the story to the forefront more and more. Before the story was just sprinkled through the zones and then put into raids and maybe dungeons, now its in your face. So having this low level of dialouge doesn't cut it, they have to improve. It seems they might have, 10.2.7 is incredibly well written and voiced, this should be the standard if they want the story to be experienced directly, rather than on the side.
Bro nobody care about tragedy and loss we just want to see orcs and humans being badass and killing things not some looming darkness bullshit that they're gonna halfass for the 4th xpac in a row now
My only complain against the wow questing is that the game forces the player to kill to do almost everything, im growing up and I found that… tiresome.