42 thoughts on “End Game Grinds Could Actually Be Good For World of Warcraft”
Depends on the grinds/farms. Some are fun, some just serve subscriptions and engagement, which i guess is not inherently bad unless it gets to the point of milking and they often dont shy away from that lol. For example metas like ''a world awoken'' are excellent, but players should be aware of the requiring achievements (at that point in time when the content is current) so they can actively start working for them.
I can not tell you the times i opted for farming rng raid mounts just because there was nothing else that interests me while it would make a world of sense to work on a meta instead of ramming my head on the wall that is called rng.
I like a grind where I can incrementally increase my power especially when I know it’s not a gamble and it’s guaranteed I just have to put the work in.
End game grind would be great: if it was account-based and not character-based. Imagine some kind of power scaling like that dumb necklace but it was applied to your Warband. The main failure of these systems is they are in direct conflict with alts; which is a pillar of the game. Everyone plays alts, everyone likes alts, it's RARE when someone only plays a single character.
I'm a world last player and imo a weekly progression like the bfa corruption cloak would be better than nerfing bosses to the ground 3weeks before a new patch. But the number of mythic plus players are waaaay bigger than mythic raiders so this 'being stronger every week' mode will most likely cause problems in some ways for the m+ people and we'll go from making some people happy while make a lot more people pissed
Not all grinds are made equal, I think WoW takes it to an excessive and unhealthy length at times. If the grind makes taking even a single days break as if you lost an entire weeks paycheck… ya doin' it wrong.
I enjoyed all the grinding in my first two expansions – Wrath and Cata because I thought they were fun. But the fun wore off eventually. And being forced to do Island Expeditions for whatever that stuff was drove me away from the game.
I get that AP was frustrating to those who minmax as there was no hard cap, but as a casual player it always felt nice to just be able to get something like AP for all kinds of activities and feel like my character is getting stronger from it. It itched that dopamine for me that you get from XP while levelling, that you stop getting at max level. I just don't feel the same intrinsic interest in a piece of gear as I do something like XP.
Are you… are you guys like, desperately trying to reach for straws for content? The AP grind is why myself and many others left BFA. Shadowlands saw a massive drop off from borrowed power so badly that FF took over WoW for a while in popularity. These aren't good. It's annoying. We aren't kids with zero care about time anymore. Get off the internet for awhile. These takes are so fried.
I quit the game in WOD, came back on last patch of Legion, played a small part of BFA in the middle, then again in the final patch (thanks to covid lockdown). AP was really fun in Legion, but I'm sure that's because of how boosted it was at the end of the expansion. It was also insane that I got maybe like 5 artifact levels while leveling up, if that many, then got hundreds within a week or two after I hit 110. For whatever reason (probably trying to "change things up so it doesn't feel too repetitive") the BFA AP grind was significantly less fun. I think part of it is, in Legion, a lot of the content was "play what you want" for a casual player like me, and in BFA the content was "you MUST do these different things on your weekly checklist" even for a casual player. Also, the artifact leveling in Legion didn't require any outside guides or anything… You just picked everything until you got to the concordance buff. BFA's stupid azerite armor required finding a guide for picking the correct azerite powers, and leveling up the actual artifact didn't do much on its own. Basically, if they want to do an endgame grind, keep it simple and rewarding. The problem is Ion and his idiots like to sniff their own farts and think creating a complicated system that only theorycrafters give a shit about (since it gives them clicks on wowhead and icy veins) is good design.
We live in a world where someone said "Corruption wasn't that bad" and this is considered something OK to say. No , no its not. Weekly or daily caps ARE BAD, THIS IS NOT A FUCKING JOB, ITS A GAME
The biggest issue with mythic raids is the gear progression loop, or the lack of it.
Gear progression doesn't exist in the same manner as difficulty tiers do. Each tier should be tuned for its previous respective tier and award gear that exceeds the content requirements. I.E LFR should be tuned for Heroic Dungeon gear and award Mythic Dungeon loot Normal should be tuned for Mythic Dungeon Loot and award M+/Normal Raid Heroic should be tuned for M+/Normal loot and award M+5/Heroic Raid Mythic should be tuned for M+5/Heroic Raid and award M+10/Mythic Raid
Stop invalidating the gear progression and let people out gear all difficulty tiers, make things like ahead of the curve and cutting edge have Ilvl restrictions for "prestige".
I would rather quit than go back into the legion/bfa look. Shadowlands was better because it removed them, DF is GOAT and higher than legion numbers because of this.
No, god, please, no. Having a hard cap on gear means that I’m not stuck in this game forever with FOMO. I like being able to compete for logs with people without some sweaty gear grind eliminating all player skill.
Just limit Mythic to a lower ilvl so that its harder for RTWF, then once the race is over let people in with higher gear. Also remove mythic group lockouts, ruins a large portion of our raid nights when we cant get a replacement in.
Artifact power is boring. Corruptions were actually a good idea, but blizzard just messed it up in basically every way. It made gearing more interesting which is what I think WoW needs, but it also made the game pay to win and had no bad luck protection.
End game endless grinds are boring, tedious and constsantly make me feel like I'm behind on the treadmill.
Conversely, dragonflight's upgrade system that has ever-increasing seasonal caps rather than weekly caps feels like a truly glorious system, and allows me to pick up alts on a complete whim, and "complete" those cheracters by getting them to full 483 gear over a week or two while working my regular 9-5 job.
The only things system-wise that I think need some work is raid loot being a once per week lockout (dinars or a similar system could help here) and great vaul being a complete crap-chute of RNG once per week.
In fact in season 3, I've felt so emboldened by the current gearing system that I leveled and geared my first retail WoW tank.
If we ever see anything like legion legendaries or the heart of azeroth that is endlessly grindable and tied to player power again, I will simply stop playing as those systems do nothing but make me feel bad for taking a break for a week or two or playng my alts instead of my main.
Please make a distinction. Grind is good, but not if its timegated. Some timegates are nessisary, such as raid lockouts, but the way the game is currently set up you pretty much blow through everything outside of raiding/M+ within a week of a new patch and are then sitting around waiting for timegates to reset.
This is also why people begged blizzard to make the game more 'alt friendly' by making things account wide, when that just invalidates playing an alt in the first place, playing alts is what you do when you've run out of progression on your main to do that isn't timegated, but when WOW becomes nothing but timegates, upkeeping your daily/weekly chores on every alt becomes tedious.
Like imagine Legion Legendaries if they actually just let you sit down and deterministically grind each of them by actively engaging in different content until you got the ones you wanted/needed, the legiondary system would be much better received then the daily/weekly RNG clusterF it was. Same with Torghast, while the layout and gameplay of Torghast could have been improved, if I could just spend my free time farming out all my legendaries on a single character on my own time instead of it being a weekly chore for a pittence of soul ash, the system would have been much better recieved.
Also the catch up mechanics of the modern game is atrocious. Know what would be better than taking blues from dungeons and boosting their ilvl thrice over the course of an expansion? Remove the weekly lockout of previous tiers that are no longer current.
Also MWF is fine, the problem is that mythic raiding gives the best gear in the game. It should give a title, mount, and transmog, and thats it. the ilvl bloat of mutliple difficulties is a massive issue, and creates unrealistic standards for heroic/normal raiding especially when they design M+ welfare gear to compete with starter boss ilvl in mythic, it makes doing heroic raids utterly pointless.
That is why I suggest things like Scythe of Elune, or a long chain for the "Light saber" and upgrade quests of legendaries alike At'iesh and Link's Hookshot that a paladin tank could use for ranged pull way back in the day.
I never hated end game grinds when the progress will also count towards every character or the fact you get currency to grab similar tier items to your other toons from grinding on your main. Or gear can become account-wide and would turn into the spec and gear type the class had (Example being Warband's system being more wide than it is right now), The problem I only had with Endgame content was its become way too grindy across toons than it is doing it the first time on your main class/character. If progress was more open minded for people who want to change things up and try new specialization classes outside their primary character but are stuck in quest barriers or content barriers to get to endgame (Which many times throughout each expansion they don't allow you to skip specific parts at max level until like .1 patch or .2 patch which I find silly to begin with), things would be a little less tedious on the endgame grind where you have the unnecessary barriers of entry to catch up to your main character's progression.
Some people WANT to try out their other class toons at similar level but can't because of these barriers and the fact they can't catch up to Raid tier gears or Mythic+ gears easily due to no catch-up items that your main could grind on to hand to your alt character to allow you to experiment and expand you skill in the game and try being a Healer, or a Tank or a different DPS instead of the one class that has 1 or 2 or 3 roles that you already are too familiar of and probably got bored doing it on.
I have one of the displates from echo above my desk, I like the world race and watched the whole thing live and cheered when they won. But fuck the world race every nerf should be considered a failure on blizzards part. Tune your bosses properly, I dont care if the race is over in 3 weeks or 3 days. Unfortunately progressively nerfing the bosses until they get the amount of guild clears theyre looking for does seem to be Blizzs philosophy and I havent seen anything from the team to allude to them feeling like it should be otherwise, so I dont anticipate this changing any time soon.
> Merge Normal raid with lfr into 1 dificulty were you can either go with guild or que for finder or hybrind with learning dificulty > Keep heroic as it is between Myth and heroic > Tune down Myth raid for average myth raider where you wont need to nerf it bunch of time > Add to Myth dificulty an npc (like back in wrath icc). You talk to him to turn on hardcore mode and attach to that hardcore mode only Achievement and maybe mount but not gear.
So in total 3 gearing dificulties and 1 challenge mode just for those races with ridiculous dificulty
Thats how I would see raiding more lined up with dungeon gearing.
Depends on the grinds/farms. Some are fun, some just serve subscriptions and engagement, which i guess is not inherently bad unless it gets to the point of milking and they often dont shy away from that lol. For example metas like ''a world awoken'' are excellent, but players should be aware of the requiring achievements (at that point in time when the content is current) so they can actively start working for them.
I can not tell you the times i opted for farming rng raid mounts just because there was nothing else that interests me while it would make a world of sense to work on a meta instead of ramming my head on the wall that is called rng.
Idk, I like a carrot to chase. I need some sort of power grind incentive.
Current generation: "I WANT IT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW"
“Yea this thing that gets the lion share of the dev time and resources doesn’t hurt the rest of the game”. LoL. Lmao.
Haven't watched yet but I came here to say end game loops similar to bfa are only good if you could only have one character similar to ff14
Crazy how many bad takes 2 people can have together. Stick with the news instead of opinions.
I like a grind where I can incrementally increase my power especially when I know it’s not a gamble and it’s guaranteed I just have to put the work in.
End game grind would be great: if it was account-based and not character-based. Imagine some kind of power scaling like that dumb necklace but it was applied to your Warband. The main failure of these systems is they are in direct conflict with alts; which is a pillar of the game. Everyone plays alts, everyone likes alts, it's RARE when someone only plays a single character.
Absolutely not
Just commenting on the.title NO THEY ARE NOT FUCK POINTLESS GRINDING
Account-wide and we gucci.
Grind is good, but not infinite grind that gets erased 1 patch later, or that gets nerfed during the patch.
No.
I'm a world last player and imo a weekly progression like the bfa corruption cloak would be better than nerfing bosses to the ground 3weeks before a new patch. But the number of mythic plus players are waaaay bigger than mythic raiders so this 'being stronger every week' mode will most likely cause problems in some ways for the m+ people and we'll go from making some people happy while make a lot more people pissed
Not all grinds are made equal, I think WoW takes it to an excessive and unhealthy length at times. If the grind makes taking even a single days break as if you lost an entire weeks paycheck… ya doin' it wrong.
What is that title? Have you both gone full circle?
I enjoyed all the grinding in my first two expansions – Wrath and Cata because I thought they were fun. But the fun wore off eventually. And being forced to do Island Expeditions for whatever that stuff was drove me away from the game.
I get that AP was frustrating to those who minmax as there was no hard cap, but as a casual player it always felt nice to just be able to get something like AP for all kinds of activities and feel like my character is getting stronger from it. It itched that dopamine for me that you get from XP while levelling, that you stop getting at max level. I just don't feel the same intrinsic interest in a piece of gear as I do something like XP.
i love rolling boulders up a mountain! ❤❤❤
ah not this again…..
End game grinds are fine. Mandatory dailies/weeklies less so. It needs an end point.
Are you… are you guys like, desperately trying to reach for straws for content?
The AP grind is why myself and many others left BFA. Shadowlands saw a massive drop off from borrowed power so badly that FF took over WoW for a while in popularity. These aren't good. It's annoying. We aren't kids with zero care about time anymore.
Get off the internet for awhile. These takes are so fried.
I quit the game in WOD, came back on last patch of Legion, played a small part of BFA in the middle, then again in the final patch (thanks to covid lockdown). AP was really fun in Legion, but I'm sure that's because of how boosted it was at the end of the expansion. It was also insane that I got maybe like 5 artifact levels while leveling up, if that many, then got hundreds within a week or two after I hit 110.
For whatever reason (probably trying to "change things up so it doesn't feel too repetitive") the BFA AP grind was significantly less fun. I think part of it is, in Legion, a lot of the content was "play what you want" for a casual player like me, and in BFA the content was "you MUST do these different things on your weekly checklist" even for a casual player. Also, the artifact leveling in Legion didn't require any outside guides or anything… You just picked everything until you got to the concordance buff. BFA's stupid azerite armor required finding a guide for picking the correct azerite powers, and leveling up the actual artifact didn't do much on its own.
Basically, if they want to do an endgame grind, keep it simple and rewarding. The problem is Ion and his idiots like to sniff their own farts and think creating a complicated system that only theorycrafters give a shit about (since it gives them clicks on wowhead and icy veins) is good design.
We live in a world where someone said "Corruption wasn't that bad" and this is considered something OK to say. No , no its not. Weekly or daily caps ARE BAD, THIS IS NOT A FUCKING JOB, ITS A GAME
Azerite was bad because of respec costs, needing to reunlock powers, and gear bloat. The heart of azeroth itself is fine.
Hmm i wonder does any other mmo has this problem oh yes they dont because they dont fixate on the 0.01% off players
The biggest issue with mythic raids is the gear progression loop, or the lack of it.
Gear progression doesn't exist in the same manner as difficulty tiers do. Each tier should be tuned for its previous respective tier and award gear that exceeds the content requirements.
I.E
LFR should be tuned for Heroic Dungeon gear and award Mythic Dungeon loot
Normal should be tuned for Mythic Dungeon Loot and award M+/Normal Raid
Heroic should be tuned for M+/Normal loot and award M+5/Heroic Raid
Mythic should be tuned for M+5/Heroic Raid and award M+10/Mythic Raid
Stop invalidating the gear progression and let people out gear all difficulty tiers, make things like ahead of the curve and cutting edge have Ilvl restrictions for "prestige".
I would rather quit than go back into the legion/bfa look. Shadowlands was better because it removed them, DF is GOAT and higher than legion numbers because of this.
No, god, please, no. Having a hard cap on gear means that I’m not stuck in this game forever with FOMO. I like being able to compete for logs with people without some sweaty gear grind eliminating all player skill.
Just limit Mythic to a lower ilvl so that its harder for RTWF, then once the race is over let people in with higher gear. Also remove mythic group lockouts, ruins a large portion of our raid nights when we cant get a replacement in.
Blizzard should just make a Mystic 10 and a Race to World First 20 difficulty.
Artifact power is boring. Corruptions were actually a good idea, but blizzard just messed it up in basically every way. It made gearing more interesting which is what I think WoW needs, but it also made the game pay to win and had no bad luck protection.
End game endless grinds are boring, tedious and constsantly make me feel like I'm behind on the treadmill.
Conversely, dragonflight's upgrade system that has ever-increasing seasonal caps rather than weekly caps feels like a truly glorious system, and allows me to pick up alts on a complete whim, and "complete" those cheracters by getting them to full 483 gear over a week or two while working my regular 9-5 job.
The only things system-wise that I think need some work is raid loot being a once per week lockout (dinars or a similar system could help here) and great vaul being a complete crap-chute of RNG once per week.
In fact in season 3, I've felt so emboldened by the current gearing system that I leveled and geared my first retail WoW tank.
If we ever see anything like legion legendaries or the heart of azeroth that is endlessly grindable and tied to player power again, I will simply stop playing as those systems do nothing but make me feel bad for taking a break for a week or two or playng my alts instead of my main.
Please make a distinction. Grind is good, but not if its timegated. Some timegates are nessisary, such as raid lockouts, but the way the game is currently set up you pretty much blow through everything outside of raiding/M+ within a week of a new patch and are then sitting around waiting for timegates to reset.
This is also why people begged blizzard to make the game more 'alt friendly' by making things account wide, when that just invalidates playing an alt in the first place, playing alts is what you do when you've run out of progression on your main to do that isn't timegated, but when WOW becomes nothing but timegates, upkeeping your daily/weekly chores on every alt becomes tedious.
Like imagine Legion Legendaries if they actually just let you sit down and deterministically grind each of them by actively engaging in different content until you got the ones you wanted/needed, the legiondary system would be much better received then the daily/weekly RNG clusterF it was. Same with Torghast, while the layout and gameplay of Torghast could have been improved, if I could just spend my free time farming out all my legendaries on a single character on my own time instead of it being a weekly chore for a pittence of soul ash, the system would have been much better recieved.
Also the catch up mechanics of the modern game is atrocious. Know what would be better than taking blues from dungeons and boosting their ilvl thrice over the course of an expansion? Remove the weekly lockout of previous tiers that are no longer current.
Also MWF is fine, the problem is that mythic raiding gives the best gear in the game. It should give a title, mount, and transmog, and thats it. the ilvl bloat of mutliple difficulties is a massive issue, and creates unrealistic standards for heroic/normal raiding especially when they design M+ welfare gear to compete with starter boss ilvl in mythic, it makes doing heroic raids utterly pointless.
Grinding and progression are core to MMOs. People like to complain and say they don’t want it but I think they actually do
No thank you. I like to play more than just WoW and forever grinds just make me feel like I have to play every single day.
these mythic nerfs are legit pathetic for a mmo that takes itself serious. 20% ???????????
That is why I suggest things like Scythe of Elune, or a long chain for the "Light saber" and upgrade quests of legendaries alike At'iesh and Link's Hookshot that a paladin tank could use for ranged pull way back in the day.
I never hated end game grinds when the progress will also count towards every character or the fact you get currency to grab similar tier items to your other toons from grinding on your main. Or gear can become account-wide and would turn into the spec and gear type the class had (Example being Warband's system being more wide than it is right now), The problem I only had with Endgame content was its become way too grindy across toons than it is doing it the first time on your main class/character. If progress was more open minded for people who want to change things up and try new specialization classes outside their primary character but are stuck in quest barriers or content barriers to get to endgame (Which many times throughout each expansion they don't allow you to skip specific parts at max level until like .1 patch or .2 patch which I find silly to begin with), things would be a little less tedious on the endgame grind where you have the unnecessary barriers of entry to catch up to your main character's progression.
Some people WANT to try out their other class toons at similar level but can't because of these barriers and the fact they can't catch up to Raid tier gears or Mythic+ gears easily due to no catch-up items that your main could grind on to hand to your alt character to allow you to experiment and expand you skill in the game and try being a Healer, or a Tank or a different DPS instead of the one class that has 1 or 2 or 3 roles that you already are too familiar of and probably got bored doing it on.
Pull the plug.
Cut the line.
Was this video supposed to be an April Fool's joke 9 days late?
I have one of the displates from echo above my desk, I like the world race and watched the whole thing live and cheered when they won. But fuck the world race every nerf should be considered a failure on blizzards part. Tune your bosses properly, I dont care if the race is over in 3 weeks or 3 days. Unfortunately progressively nerfing the bosses until they get the amount of guild clears theyre looking for does seem to be Blizzs philosophy and I havent seen anything from the team to allude to them feeling like it should be otherwise, so I dont anticipate this changing any time soon.
I actually liked the corruption system, it was fun when you actually had your corruption gear 😋
> Merge Normal raid with lfr into 1 dificulty were you can either go with guild or que for finder or hybrind with learning dificulty
> Keep heroic as it is between Myth and heroic
> Tune down Myth raid for average myth raider where you wont need to nerf it bunch of time
> Add to Myth dificulty an npc (like back in wrath icc). You talk to him to turn on hardcore mode and attach to that hardcore mode only Achievement and maybe mount but not gear.
So in total 3 gearing dificulties and 1 challenge mode just for those races with ridiculous dificulty
Thats how I would see raiding more lined up with dungeon gearing.