Read more about World of Warcraft ➜ https://worldofwarcraft.mgn.gg
Both Classic and Retail WoW have their pros and cons, but what are they, and how do these different versions of the same game compare? Includes some pushback on both the fans and the critics of both communities.
00:00 Bad Bots
01:43 Worlds of Warcraft
03:00 Runnin’ vs Gunnin’
03:51 Not Nostalgia
05:39 1/5 Things Done
06:20 World Difficulty
07:52 Difficulty Adds Immersion
10:25 Dungeon Healing
11:01 Saving Ass
12:16 Exceptional Experiences
12:57 Classic Reserves Idiots
14:09 Refined Retail Loot
14:54 Heroes and Superheroes
16:05 Classic Class Catastrophe
17:11 M+ Worship
19:11 Discussing Differences
22:19 Pros/Cons Classic
26:51 Pros/Cons Retail
30:41 One WoW for All?
source
Great video. Enjoyed every second of it. It really felt like a passionate, heartfelt differentiation between Classic WoW and Retail WoW. I too love playing both game modes. Two things I love about Classic are the simplicity and class identity, and two things I love about retail are the endgame and class balancing. They always feel like two very different games to me, but I still love them both all the same 🫶🏻
People who like actually doing content and pushing themselves to do higher and higher content prefer retail, people who prefer to fuck around and socialize and rp (call it what you want) like classic.
As someone who enjoyed WOW Vanilla as far back as beta, I just can't go back. It's too much time wasted traveling for me. My gaming preference is what Sid Meier (Civilization) describes with, "games are a series of interesting decisions." While traveling there are often almost no decisions (the tiniest bit of decision-making avoiding aggro, usually), and that's boring to me.
Rotations are also much better in modern WOW. I could see a rebalance of early WOW making things slightly better (and maybe that's what Classic does? I haven't tried it at all), but ultimately you're not going to have the depth and nuance of modern WOW's rotations. Especially with War Within's rather deep talent trees offering quite a lot of optimization usually; like you generally have far fewer total abilities (in terms of count) in modern WOW, but mastering the system requires considerably more skill because there are all these procs/triggers to look out for to maximize your output.
Non-combat abilities are one thing I always think about. Modern WOW basically canned the idea long ago (though stuff like Teleport stuck around), but I can imagine the game world being populated with way more utility-rewarding stuff, and then divvying up ~3 main types of utility abilities across the characters. So for just lockpicking as an example:
* give it to about 1/3rd of the classes (so Warriors can now smash locks, Druids can shapeshift into ant form to pick it, Rogues still have regular lockpicking, etc)
* bring back Locked Chests in the world
* add dramatically more Locked Doors to the world. Sometimes they're just part of the combat content (this locked door lets you skip a bunch of enemies to get straight to a boss chamber). Other times it'd be non-combat (several towns would have abandoned houses with locked doors/cellars/etc, and you can break in to loot stuff, to find unique stores, or to see unique lore events
It's a non-trivial amount of work, so overall I think Blizzard probably made the right call (in ditching utility skills). However part of me definitely wonders what that fully-supported Utility Skill world would've looked like.
Retail and Classic are two completely different games and the fact both factions are still fighting is completely pointless. Retail isn't suddenly going to become "better" if they remove (thing I don't like). Its issues are compounded over several years of features. Its never going to be like Classic ever again and it shouldn't have to be.
The fact we can officially play Classic, multiple different forms of it should be the selling point. This smugness both Classic and Retail players give to each other needs to end
A BIG thumbs up! 👍 you said everything I feel about both classic and retail. So refreshing to hear you tell it like it is. Very humorous and true, you rock brother 😂
Nice to find someone who also can enjoy multiple versions of the game and hates reserving gear almost as much as I do. =)
Personally, I enjoy Vanilla – MoP. I think rotations and class design were the best in Wrath, Cata, and MoP. We're no longer in versions of the game where you just press one or two buttons (except for Arcane Mage loool) but also it's not as needlessly complex as retail; inelegant is how I would describe it. The rotations in these expansions seemed purposefully designed, and as cool as the newest talent trees are, they don't result in those smooth rotations the get the player into a flow state. That to me is the magic since 99.99% of what we actually do in these games is combat. There weren't fifty million modifiers on all the abilities (just basic things like crit, trinket procs, etc.) so each spell felt good to hit. On retail you have a million spells, but they all hit like wet noodles unless some proc you don't control happened (this also makes the PvP much worse IMO). I think Cata healing feels the best, although I appreciate how MoP threw the new cookie cutter model out the window with Mistweaver to immediately butcher and homogenize it in the next expansion.
Homogenization first really hit a peak in MoP, but it did well to help make every spec viable especially in PvP. I think that could be toned back a bit from that point (let alone how far it has gone in retail). I think for balancing PvP something like the "resolve" bar from SWtOR would be a better solution that doesn't require homogenation, but that would be going on a tangent to explain. So what is the OVERALL answer to homogenization, while still allowing for things to actually be balanced, while having those carefully crafted rotations where everything fit together into a greater whole, AND have customization that players desire?
The answer is in having different playstyle choices that are separate from each other. So imagine at the top of a talent tree you have a series of playstyle toggles (we can envision the old school talent trees but I have a better option to pitch that I won't get into). You click on one, and the tree below changes. It could be as small as number changes (since each iteration can be balanced independently) to completely new talents. Remember how cool Gladiator Stance was, but how hard it was to balance? It's like that, but on crack. So the most extreme example would be something like a tanking version of Enhance Shaman. When you toggle it on, it lowers your damage done and taken by a flat percentage. Many of your abilities are replaced by new ones. On top of that, there is a brand new version of their talent tree that is completely dedicated to tanking. NOTHING you do here effects the other version of the spec.
The less extreme would take the place of class reworks and redesigns. This way, you never "lose" anything, a new option is just added to choose from. This makes the game MUCH easier to design for and balance, as opposed to having to reinvent the wheel for every spec with every expansion (an ADDITIVE system with horizontal progression that avoid macro cycles of bloat and prune). So let's use Shadow as an example. You have one version of the spec that just uses mana and operates like the Vanilla-Wrath version, where Devouring Plague can only be used on one target. You have another version that is a reworked Dark Archangel mechanic, and everything about that iteration is revolved around it. A third version uses Shadow Orbs like they did in MoP and WoD. A fourth version of the spec uses Insanity and has Void Form. A fifth version is like the "dotless" Shadow spec from WoD, except this time it has an actual rotation. Like Gladiator Stance, picking this replaces your dot spells with brand new ones, that interact with each other. See the picture I'm painting here?
You can have the most balanced and well designed version of each iteration of every spec, and have more customization that was ever possible with the game. Think of all the things like Shockadin, Fistweaving, Warlock tanks, etc. that could be easily done. This is the way forward.
SOD is not an experiment for Classic+ but an experiment to find a middle ground for something new.
None the less Classic to TBC is great. I did not like what they did to Wrath classic and the bizarre titan dungeon system. It made it difficult for people hitting level cap to find ways to gear up and participate in the current content cause they did not level up at launch of the expansion.
TBC truly seems to be the best middle ground for classic. Just enough tweaks to make hybrid none healing specs viable or really good. While not leaving players who are slower in leveling out.
Well, as someone who now plays Classic, imo Classic players are horrible. And if you can get over that, and the no challenge PvE content ? You are gonna have fun.
Retail is… not really WoW, or rather not what WoW originally was thru the years. Do with that as you will.
I personally think retail should have a heroic questing system o something like that, doing leveling harder, like classic leveling, obiously with cool rewards
Yep, I love playing both: retail and classic. I definitely don’t love the 50 abilities in retail, which is why when I talent, I practically pick all passive talents, so I only have five buttons to press and not fifty-five.
Never change!
The main reason I don’t play Classic anymore is that I’ve already done it all before. I drained it dry over the years and just can’t bring myself to go through it all again. It doesn’t diminish my fond memories of it in any way though.
Having played since 2005, I prefer retail. Vanilla was great for it's time…. but it doesn't work now.
Im also a dreamer. Thank you for the video ^^
Retail is just flashy flashy bing bong wahoo! levels of brainrot. If I wanted to play a solo game, I’d go play… not an MMO. You play MMOs for the social interaction at the end of the day, no matter the player. Even if all you’re looking to do is make gains for bragging rights… you’re still doing it for social interaction reasons.
Also… it’s hard to want to do actual content in Classic when you know you’re not getting anything. THATS the actual bullshit side of things. You’re running whole groups through raids for NO chance at loot. You’re hoping for the master looter to give you enough brownie points to throw you a bone every so often, and it just feels awful.
Also… BOklahoma? My dude, please go play SoD. Your gripes with Classic(and Ret/Prot PLD) will mostly be solved.
100% agree with your last video in regards to boting F that tattletale.
I’ve been purchasing currency in games for well over 25 years. I’m always amused by the goody two shoe hoity-toity stick up the old ass players who love virtue signaling how superior they are to everyone else because they don’t purchase currency.
Typically, there’s two main reasons one they two chickenshit and scared they will get caught the other. They can’t afford it.
Either that they’re gonna tell you how they suck the D of some game developer.
Just give me a static wrath server and I will be happy. I think the game was at most balanced.
Solo Q for arena is the only reason I'm considering coming back to retail.
Another aspect Retail is missing if the buff sharing.. tossing Blessing of Kings or Wisdom to passing players and they give you what they can provide like INT or STA buffs. Alot of those are gone in Retail.
Retail is miles better than that fried fucking walking simulator classic players place on a pedestal as a vocal minority
trying to act like retail is on equal footing with classic wow is a first.
I fuckin like this guy "bitch made bullshit" – agree 100% subbed
The amount of boosting in classic was a real turn off. No one runs low level dungeons in SoD anymore, they just pay for a boost. I’m in love with my memory of classic but not the actual state of it.
On reserve, lol I haven't played Classic long enough but yea that does sound like living in your mama's basemet rules
40-man raids with 30 of those slots occupied by warriors. I would rather have retail's class balance than that.
If you play rogue in retail, mobs are dangerous. People say rogue is weak. Honestly it's how it should be. Y'all other classes just overtuned.