35 thoughts on “The Mythic Raid Scene Is Falling Apart”
From the perspective of an entry level mythic raiding guild, the problem for us is mostly the 20 player requirement, as we only raid 2 nights a week, one of those is wasted on heroic for the chase items from the later bosses, and we have one night only for mythic. We usually kill 4-5 bosses a tier, but after 1,5-2 months we have to cancel raid nights as we have only 18-19 mythic ready people for the raid, untill we stop raiding all together even though we have the skill level to go higher, we can't fill the roster consistently. Heroic raid is way too easy and unrewarding except for the chase items and because of those we have to go down wasting our precious raid time every week (we killed hc fyrakk every week this tier and only one dps trinket dropped and there are still melees who yearn for the smolderon trinket). Even mythic raiding is unrewarding as most of the raid group dresses up from m+ as getting mythic raid level gear from a sub heroic level of difficulty with only 5 man is way easier and this paired with the frustration of the roster kills the enthusiasm for the challenge of raiding, ending in us stoppping progress early every tier.
Change race for world first to an invite only event and difficulty, needing to be in top 50 of previous raid or first 10 in Standard Mythic completion on the previous season raid to get an invite, launch it at the same time as normal retail so the story is out but keep it as a seperate high end comp
People do it to themselves, they push themselves to literally doing any and all things to get the slightest advantage to kill the finally boss before anyone else for that title. From spending billions of gold buying everything on the AH to running alts with main to feed them gear and spending weeks with zero sleep grinding and grinding while hiring analysts to run numbers on strats and everything
Good timing, the first "Temple of Febe – Cerus CM" world race in Guild Wars 2 has just been completed by SnowCrows after 9 days (76 hours of gameplay).
ArenaNet congratulates SnowCrows on their legendary gaming performance and announces to the GW2 community that the World First difficulty level will be permanently kept as a kind of "Legendary" CM (+Title) option for everyone in the game.
Blizzard would do well to reconsider its raids in terms of design, team size, buff food/potions, etc., and to change the system like ANet (no new raids, but several strikes = 1 boss/2-3 difficulty levels, 10-player teams, buff food/potions that persist even after death).
This would free up resources, which are currently tied to a complete raid (losing value with each new content patch), and could be better utilized in WoW.
Mythic difficulty is too hard atm at least for certain bosses.
But key issue is the fact they have allowed people who had their head used as a hammer during their early years to get free almost bis gear for free by doing M+ making them think they are gods of the game.
For instance I don't play the game as someone who wants to do all the hardest content anymore and I am fine with that. If that means I get only shit gear then that is for me because I don't do the hardest content. If I want a carrot on a stick it could exist by doing the hardest content and having a progression there. But entire progression is useless now when you have troglodytes who do Mythic plus dungeons and get amazing gear from it and want to be able to clear the hardest content but they cant do it because they are shit players.
Problems with the game currently stem from the fact they gave people bis gear without making them have sense of progressions. In turn they had to make the game super difficult mechanically so that difficulty's don't lose the value.
Its simple they should just lock gear from M+ to at best something between Normal and HC raid and in turn they can tone down the difficulty's of HC and Mythic so that if normal person wants to do it they can it will be hard but if they are dedicated they can do it and they will be rewarded for it. Currently there is no reason do Mythic raid other then bragging about how good you are.
And what people seem to miss constantly is that WF raiders aka the 0.01% is actually on their side they agree this is shit model and want it changed. Issue is that people like their free bis gear by doing nothing and don't want to give it up because they don't want to put in time or effort to do things but want to be rewarded for it.
They are not catering to 0.01%, they are catering to troglodyte casuals who keep crying how they don't have time to play but want to have all the best stuff anyway so they give them that and it creates a problem since you no longer can create any progress in the game.
Ever since the first 'wow killer' game came out and failed. I've been saying no one outside blizzard/Activision could do it. Low and behold here we are. They have made the game so convoluted in so many ways that its destroying its own player base in almost every way. Only the MOST die hards and try hards are left and even they aren't making it through safely.
I feel like Bellular just skipped the entire bit where the release-window for cross-realm Mythic was built on the 200-first-kills and that took so long that by now most of the progression-hopefuls can't even get TEN people online, much less 20 consistently for this thankless crap. Servers like ours, Stormreaver, are small enough that the competitive guilds are few and far between cough<RAIN>cough or rely heavily on cross-realm play to bolster for Mythic prog (see the next top-10 guilds on Stormreaver)
we were done with Heroic and ready for Mythic-Prog by week 5 of this season and we didn't get Mythic as an option for our small-server-livin' butts til about 3 weeks ago. By then, some 65-70% of our core had decided it wasn't really worth waiting this long and just point-blank stopped playing til next patch.
yeah nah we're DONE, we're not going to just **play wow because it exists in the hope for raid content**, we've moved on to other games til next season. And PROBABLY til pre-patch tbh, the next season is just going to be re-hashing and strangeness like it's been since BFA so
I was always surprised that Blizzard & WoW Community were happy with Mythic RWF to be locked to 2 giant companies and then having to wait 5billion nerfs (some of them drastically changing the mechanics) to finally be able to tackle the "not so 'the challenge' anymore" challenge. I find it stupid. I'd like to try out raiding in WoW, but that way of designing and padding raids isn't my cup of tea (and I agree that 20-man raids is too many, scheduling 8 or 12 people can be annoying at times already, so 20+ ?).
I honestly think RWF(in this state) in WoW still lives on because it's NA vs EU. If it were EU vs EU or NA vs NA I think it would have much less eyes on it. Maybe someday will Blizzard understand.
So glad I stepped away from retail after Castle in Shadowlands. Mythic+ and mythic raiding just isn't fun anymore to a lot of people, and the time commitment required for working class adults is not sustainable. Unless they make huge changes to this (i.e making mythic raids a more realistic goal to the MAJORITY of your player base and honestly changing M+ to just give you cosmetic rewards) I won't be buying another retail wow expansion.
TBH I wish M raiding was 10 man. I miss 10 man raiding. I wish they'd also bring back scrolls for buffs and spread the DK and Monk buff to more classes. Then we wouldnt have a bunch of this min maxing buffs and crap. Please, Blizz – Stop catering and making shit hard just cause you want the attention from RWF where you're not giving them anything other than bragging rights for WF.
it was Only a matter of Time really, First they Alienated most Casual Playerbase to Focus on the Sweatlords RWF People. And now they also Quit because they realizing its nto worth the Hassle, What now Blizzard?
Raiding in general used to be my thing but now with m+ I ignored for a long time…why bother. I can clear some m+ and get decent loot in certain amount of time per week, then I join the raid where half of people are still learning mechanics and we spend 3 hours wiping on some stupid raid wiping mechanics. Its just not worth it anymore. Btw where is solo q RBG?
Blizzard keeps playing this dumb game of chicken with Liquid and Echo and those two hire full-time WA devs, start using outside raid leaders, run two weeks of splits and spend 694 million gold on splits and BOEs and take time off work and live off sponsors so they can play 18 hours a day for 4 weeks straight and having a fucking mental breakdown while they do it. And here are the rest of us just trying to play a fucking video game and being told tough luck we didn't make the last boss for you, we made a smaller fun sized boss for you to play around with while you watch the grown-ups kill the real boss.
Eventually WoW players are going to have to just break down and admit this:
Race for World First, Arena World Championships, and MDI have twisted the game into something that is no longer fun or accessible for most of the player base. The things that are the most public facing and only real way to make money playing WoW have caused so much damage to the game.
WoW needs to go back to just being a fun game that the average player can be competent at, and the only reward for being a great player is either standing on a mailbox with your elite gear or one-shotting noobs in BG’s.
Only when Blizzard finally admits they are curating the game to accommodate the top 0.5% of players who are able to participate in these big time high-stakes sponsored events and that has created all these problems, we are stuck with this unbalanced mess.
Maybe we should go back to where being good and have a cool mount and title were the only reward we needed
Mythic raiding was fun to play, but only with top players. I used to be in a world 30-50 guild that raided 2 nights per week. Even like that, raiding was too much commitment. Even if you only pour 10 hours into it every week, that is like 1000$ per week out the window. Raiding is for low salary, or unemployed low aykyuu hobos with no families.
Just create a new tier mythic + raid. If you want recognition for race to world first, you gotta play on this difficulty. The standard mythic raid is built for the average mythic raider. The gear must be exactly the same. It's just for clout.
I think basically everyone is sick of hearing the top-100 guild's problems. All they do is spew toxic takes on their perception that creates a bunch of problems that average players don't have. It's like a daily dose of "What's wrong? You don't look right"….eventually, that person decides…there must be something wrong with me. It is all your daily dose of gaslighting. For the last decade Blizzard has been making things harder and harder to accommodate the RWF and m+ title chasers…which culminates in private auras, weak aura packages being mandatory, ludicrous spec rotations and all manner of convoluted bullshit that has created the biggest barrier of entry in the history of gaming. Either they make the game more accessible or the game will shrink little by little each season as people either give up or simply move on to a more straightforward game that they can just bring up and enjoy for a little bit.
10 man or flex mythic when? What’s wrong with having another difficulty?? If anything smaller raid teams would help community guild and player inclusion.
Gotta love how blizz keeps trying to imitate difficulty like ff14 does it, but with none of the mechanical understanding of what is realistically possible bc blizz devs dont pkay their own game, ff14 devs do, and thats why raiding on ff14 feels better. Its a shame too bc wow deserves so much better. But that would involve less executive greed, and more play time from the devs to truly understand their own game.
People are playing more casual. Playing at the higher levels feels too much like a job and is not longer fun. You can't work for 8 or 9 hours a day, being pushed ever harder at your job because of job cuts putting more pressure on the remaining employees and them come home and have to go to another job preparing to get raid ready for a game. Games are suppose to be fun and relaxing, not stressing yourself out of your mind. Most modern games are made for content creators, not gamers that also have to work a fulltime job.
From the perspective of an entry level mythic raiding guild, the problem for us is mostly the 20 player requirement, as we only raid 2 nights a week, one of those is wasted on heroic for the chase items from the later bosses, and we have one night only for mythic. We usually kill 4-5 bosses a tier, but after 1,5-2 months we have to cancel raid nights as we have only 18-19 mythic ready people for the raid, untill we stop raiding all together even though we have the skill level to go higher, we can't fill the roster consistently.
Heroic raid is way too easy and unrewarding except for the chase items and because of those we have to go down wasting our precious raid time every week (we killed hc fyrakk every week this tier and only one dps trinket dropped and there are still melees who yearn for the smolderon trinket). Even mythic raiding is unrewarding as most of the raid group dresses up from m+ as getting mythic raid level gear from a sub heroic level of difficulty with only 5 man is way easier and this paired with the frustration of the roster kills the enthusiasm for the challenge of raiding, ending in us stoppping progress early every tier.
Aww so sorry for u mythic raiders. Most sub players dont run mythics. Haha
the moment Blizzard made Mythic Raid into e-sport it went to shit
Change race for world first to an invite only event and difficulty, needing to be in top 50 of previous raid or first 10 in Standard Mythic completion on the previous season raid to get an invite, launch it at the same time as normal retail so the story is out but keep it as a seperate high end comp
People do it to themselves, they push themselves to literally doing any and all things to get the slightest advantage to kill the finally boss before anyone else for that title. From spending billions of gold buying everything on the AH to running alts with main to feed them gear and spending weeks with zero sleep grinding and grinding while hiring analysts to run numbers on strats and everything
world of warcraft would make an excellent essay on how catering to the top 1% kills your mmo.
get rid of that shit
WoW is too cluttered and Mythic is too hard, which is why it's dying.
Simple solution is make a race to world first difficulty that isn’t incentivized by gear.
Good timing, the first "Temple of Febe – Cerus CM" world race in Guild Wars 2 has just been completed by SnowCrows after 9 days (76 hours of gameplay).
ArenaNet congratulates SnowCrows on their legendary gaming performance and announces to the GW2 community that the World First difficulty level will be permanently kept as a kind of "Legendary" CM (+Title) option for everyone in the game.
Blizzard would do well to reconsider its raids in terms of design, team size, buff food/potions, etc., and to change the system like ANet (no new raids, but several strikes = 1 boss/2-3 difficulty levels, 10-player teams, buff food/potions that persist even after death).
This would free up resources, which are currently tied to a complete raid (losing value with each new content patch), and could be better utilized in WoW.
Bring back snapshotting
Mythic difficulty is too hard atm at least for certain bosses.
But key issue is the fact they have allowed people who had their head used as a hammer during their early years to get free almost bis gear for free by doing M+ making them think they are gods of the game.
For instance I don't play the game as someone who wants to do all the hardest content anymore and I am fine with that. If that means I get only shit gear then that is for me because I don't do the hardest content. If I want a carrot on a stick it could exist by doing the hardest content and having a progression there. But entire progression is useless now when you have troglodytes who do Mythic plus dungeons and get amazing gear from it and want to be able to clear the hardest content but they cant do it because they are shit players.
Problems with the game currently stem from the fact they gave people bis gear without making them have sense of progressions. In turn they had to make the game super difficult mechanically so that difficulty's don't lose the value.
Its simple they should just lock gear from M+ to at best something between Normal and HC raid and in turn they can tone down the difficulty's of HC and Mythic so that if normal person wants to do it they can it will be hard but if they are dedicated they can do it and they will be rewarded for it. Currently there is no reason do Mythic raid other then bragging about how good you are.
And what people seem to miss constantly is that WF raiders aka the 0.01% is actually on their side they agree this is shit model and want it changed. Issue is that people like their free bis gear by doing nothing and don't want to give it up because they don't want to put in time or effort to do things but want to be rewarded for it.
They are not catering to 0.01%, they are catering to troglodyte casuals who keep crying how they don't have time to play but want to have all the best stuff anyway so they give them that and it creates a problem since you no longer can create any progress in the game.
Ever since the first 'wow killer' game came out and failed. I've been saying no one outside blizzard/Activision could do it. Low and behold here we are. They have made the game so convoluted in so many ways that its destroying its own player base in almost every way. Only the MOST die hards and try hards are left and even they aren't making it through safely.
I feel like Bellular just skipped the entire bit where the release-window for cross-realm Mythic was built on the 200-first-kills and that took so long that by now most of the progression-hopefuls can't even get TEN people online, much less 20 consistently for this thankless crap. Servers like ours, Stormreaver, are small enough that the competitive guilds are few and far between cough<RAIN>cough or rely heavily on cross-realm play to bolster for Mythic prog (see the next top-10 guilds on Stormreaver)
we were done with Heroic and ready for Mythic-Prog by week 5 of this season and we didn't get Mythic as an option for our small-server-livin' butts til about 3 weeks ago. By then, some 65-70% of our core had decided it wasn't really worth waiting this long and just point-blank stopped playing til next patch.
yeah nah we're DONE, we're not going to just **play wow because it exists in the hope for raid content**, we've moved on to other games til next season. And PROBABLY til pre-patch tbh, the next season is just going to be re-hashing and strangeness like it's been since BFA so
I was always surprised that Blizzard & WoW Community were happy with Mythic RWF to be locked to 2 giant companies and then having to wait 5billion nerfs (some of them drastically changing the mechanics) to finally be able to tackle the "not so 'the challenge' anymore" challenge. I find it stupid. I'd like to try out raiding in WoW, but that way of designing and padding raids isn't my cup of tea (and I agree that 20-man raids is too many, scheduling 8 or 12 people can be annoying at times already, so 20+ ?).
I honestly think RWF(in this state) in WoW still lives on because it's NA vs EU. If it were EU vs EU or NA vs NA I think it would have much less eyes on it.
Maybe someday will Blizzard understand.
So glad I stepped away from retail after Castle in Shadowlands. Mythic+ and mythic raiding just isn't fun anymore to a lot of people, and the time commitment required for working class adults is not sustainable. Unless they make huge changes to this (i.e making mythic raids a more realistic goal to the MAJORITY of your player base and honestly changing M+ to just give you cosmetic rewards) I won't be buying another retail wow expansion.
TBH I wish M raiding was 10 man. I miss 10 man raiding. I wish they'd also bring back scrolls for buffs and spread the DK and Monk buff to more classes. Then we wouldnt have a bunch of this min maxing buffs and crap. Please, Blizz – Stop catering and making shit hard just cause you want the attention from RWF where you're not giving them anything other than bragging rights for WF.
it was Only a matter of Time really, First they Alienated most Casual Playerbase to Focus on the Sweatlords RWF People. And now they also Quit because they realizing its nto worth the Hassle, What now Blizzard?
Raiding in general used to be my thing but now with m+ I ignored for a long time…why bother. I can clear some m+ and get decent loot in certain amount of time per week, then I join the raid where half of people are still learning mechanics and we spend 3 hours wiping on some stupid raid wiping mechanics. Its just not worth it anymore. Btw where is solo q RBG?
Blizzard keeps playing this dumb game of chicken with Liquid and Echo and those two hire full-time WA devs, start using outside raid leaders, run two weeks of splits and spend 694 million gold on splits and BOEs and take time off work and live off sponsors so they can play 18 hours a day for 4 weeks straight and having a fucking mental breakdown while they do it.
And here are the rest of us just trying to play a fucking video game and being told tough luck we didn't make the last boss for you, we made a smaller fun sized boss for you to play around with while you watch the grown-ups kill the real boss.
Eventually WoW players are going to have to just break down and admit this:
Race for World First, Arena World Championships, and MDI have twisted the game into something that is no longer fun or accessible for most of the player base. The things that are the most public facing and only real way to make money playing WoW have caused so much damage to the game.
WoW needs to go back to just being a fun game that the average player can be competent at, and the only reward for being a great player is either standing on a mailbox with your elite gear or one-shotting noobs in BG’s.
Only when Blizzard finally admits they are curating the game to accommodate the top 0.5% of players who are able to participate in these big time high-stakes sponsored events and that has created all these problems, we are stuck with this unbalanced mess.
Maybe we should go back to where being good and have a cool mount and title were the only reward we needed
Really appreciate the balls Bel has to say that thing about sponsors. All more the reason to watch your videos guys.
Just make raiding easier like Vanilla or BC – problem solved.
I never cared about the raiding "scene".
Mythic raiding was fun to play, but only with top players. I used to be in a world 30-50 guild that raided 2 nights per week. Even like that, raiding was too much commitment. Even if you only pour 10 hours into it every week, that is like 1000$ per week out the window. Raiding is for low salary, or unemployed low aykyuu hobos with no families.
No one cares about RWF cuz the game is quite dead… Dumb progression, dumb content
Just create a new tier mythic + raid. If you want recognition for race to world first, you gotta play on this difficulty. The standard mythic raid is built for the average mythic raider.
The gear must be exactly the same. It's just for clout.
I think basically everyone is sick of hearing the top-100 guild's problems. All they do is spew toxic takes on their perception that creates a bunch of problems that average players don't have.
It's like a daily dose of "What's wrong? You don't look right"….eventually, that person decides…there must be something wrong with me. It is all your daily dose of gaslighting.
For the last decade Blizzard has been making things harder and harder to accommodate the RWF and m+ title chasers…which culminates in private auras, weak aura packages being mandatory, ludicrous spec rotations and all manner of convoluted bullshit that has created the biggest barrier of entry in the history of gaming. Either they make the game more accessible or the game will shrink little by little each season as people either give up or simply move on to a more straightforward game that they can just bring up and enjoy for a little bit.
Didn't you give Asmongold a bunch of crap about saying War Within is dead?
And now because 1 more Mythic raiding guild dies you say Mythic raiding is falling apart?
This is fancy word play hiding the fact that you're doing the exact same thing.
10 man or flex mythic when? What’s wrong with having another difficulty?? If anything smaller raid teams would help community guild and player inclusion.
Gotta love how blizz keeps trying to imitate difficulty like ff14 does it, but with none of the mechanical understanding of what is realistically possible bc blizz devs dont pkay their own game, ff14 devs do, and thats why raiding on ff14 feels better. Its a shame too bc wow deserves so much better. But that would involve less executive greed, and more play time from the devs to truly understand their own game.
They made the game dor 60 ppl and ruined it for the ppl who actualy play the game…
Feeders for race to world first. Thats savage and tells you enough. Fun to watch though. Shit to play.
Sports wise didn't javelin change like 2 or 3 times the rules and the javelin due to people being too good and throwing too far?
People are playing more casual. Playing at the higher levels feels too much like a job and is not longer fun. You can't work for 8 or 9 hours a day, being pushed ever harder at your job because of job cuts putting more pressure on the remaining employees and them come home and have to go to another job preparing to get raid ready for a game. Games are suppose to be fun and relaxing, not stressing yourself out of your mind. Most modern games are made for content creators, not gamers that also have to work a fulltime job.
Rading in WOW is one of the most toxic experiences in gaming.