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More cosmos big bad stuff? What do you think?
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What happens AFTER Shadowlands? Idk I wasn't planning on playing WoW anymore lol you guys let me know
One of the big things Blizzard used to understand is the distinction between being A hero and being THE hero. Part of what made WoW great as a MMO was that you were A hero. This meant that you filled an important role on a team of heroes that needed to work together to defeat the big bad. Part of that team was your fellow players, part of it was NPCs, but you understand that while you were absolutely important, you were not irreplaceable. Another hero COULD step in and fill your place if needed, but only so many heroes could do so, so you needed to show up if you could, but it wouldn't be the end of existence if you didn't. It was a perfect amount of tension that made your presence always useful but never mandatory.
When your character becomes THE hero, problems start. First, all of these NPC characters – who all know more than you do, at first – are nevertheless weaker than you. You're now the "only hope" of the world, yet you don't have the knowledge to actually BE the only hope. Technically, if Zoval had just killed Bolvar, we would've lost. He didn't have to stop us. He just had to stop the guy telling us what to do and that's it, Zoval wins. Second, what the hell are these other players for? If YOU are the one and only hope of Azeroth, what are these guys here for? After all, you're THE hero, right? Why do I see 20 other Maw Walkers running around if I'm THE Maw Walker? If these other players aren't Maw Walkers, what the hell are they doing in the Shadowlands? How did they land in the Maw and still make it to Oribos if they're not Maw Walkers?
All of these questions don't happen if you're A hero rather than THE hero. When you're A hero, in a MMO, things make sense. When you're THE hero in a MMO, things start to fall apart. Blizzard understood this during Wrath. Who killed Arthas? Not us! We weakened him, but it was Tirion and the Ashbringer that struck the killing blow. And yet, without the help of us, a band of heroes, Tirion would've become just another Death Knight. This was the exact perfect way to handle this. This is how you kill an end-of-expansion villain in a MMO, and no fight has executed it perfectly before or since ICC for this very reason.
Whatever happens next, we need to be A hero again. One of many. Useful and helpful, but not necessary. Replaceable even, but only to a point. There's plenty else Blizzard needs to do to make their story make sense again, but this will go a long way towards that.
You don't need a bigger, badder villain to make a new expansion. You just need a good story.
I thought you said, "The sacred words trolled us …" and my reaction was, "Well, WoW is being honest for once."
You're using some very big words for story that ended up with some cheap mannequin being left to dry, js
WoW has always had good lore and world building, and lousy storytelling. The only difference between WoW today and decades past is that rather than investing more time in the lore, world building, and side stories, they decided to tell a story centered on the faction leaders and prominent NPCs.
You as the player have nothing to do with the story in any direct way. The vast majority of events you are involved in don't actually involve your character, and that's why none of it lands. Anduin is not my character, he's just the alliance prince/king. Sylvanas is not my character, she's just a mess who's sad about stuff now. We're just witnessing a sketch drama playing out with the forethought and consideration of a high school improv class.
My question is wtf do the dragons have to do with us now? Didn't we stomp them before
You know it would be really funny: if it turns out that the Maw Walker prophecy, wasn’t actually a prophecy at all but an instruction manual.
When or if they will they being a wow 2?
Zerith Mortis Denizens: "THE PLAN IS ALL. THE FIRST ONES PLANNED FOR THIS."
First Ones: "So we're going to leave them a message about what planned obsolescence means, right?"
Firstest Ones: "Nah they'll figure it out."
I hate the habit of turning everything into 'zomg we are the chosen ones of the chosen world of the universe' stuff. Like, Azeroth as a sleeping titan? Ok. Azeroth as The Last Titan? Less good, but acceptable. Azeroth as the SUPER SPECIAL MULTIVERSE CREATING SUPER BEYOND-TITAN is awful. They think it's making things bigger, but what it's actually doing is making everything smaller. The universe is only the size of Azeroth, Outland/Draenor (one continent), some rocks floating in space, and eh, maybe a few floating islands for each cosmic force plane, max. Nothing else. No mysterious unknown, no vast beyond any more. What's even the point of fantasy or scifi without that sense of boundless wonder? But modern writers seem to be intimidated by that.
Oh, by the way, your plane/dimension is the key to everything, oh and your planet is the key to everything, oh and I forgot to mention that you individually are the key to everything …
Our character isn't just the champion of our faction, but also our whole planet, but also our whole universe/plane-of-existence, but also all planes of existence, and therefore all reality, and all meta-reality…
Don't have any family, friends or a house … still just a random murder-hobo among a million murder-hobos … but also the champion of all possible realities… Such a stupid fricking premise and story.
At 6:18 – the discussion about the bizarre meta of comic books … I remember that from back in the day with Wolverine comics, where the really-out-there-meta-characters would pop in to mix things up (like Spiral, Majordomo?, etc) or they would have a mini-story at the back of the issue with an alternative cyber-Wolverine and mystical little girl adventuring across the dimensions. But the comic guys had the sense to just use momentary invasions/interdictions/intersections … something where a more complex and incomprehensible multi-dimensional 6D chess game just happens to intersect with "normal" reality for a moment and then recedes back into the incomprehensible ether, leaving us and the normal characters to wonder what is going on out there and when/how it will intersect again at some time in the future (or past??). At least that was my minimal exposure to it – for me it seemed a limitless pool of opportunities to inject new life into the "normal" world of the comic, and to have an alluring and mysterious backdrop. I'm sure it was done better/worse/horribly in comics at times too.
I realise the comic authors created this uber-meta reality to avoid stagnation and repetition, to stretch the longevity of their IPs, but they seem to have had far more creativity and sense in how/when to use it and explore it (if at all).
You know what else gets me? The number of NPCs in Oribos from Azeroth, who never did anything. Of course some of them were just fun references but..
Baine 🙁
Calia Menethil
The Kirin Tor Raven (Dadghar?)
Koltira+Thalassian
Griftah
Sunwalker Dezco
Admiral Taylor
Ol' Emma + Philia Fintallas
Gallywix (Okay, he's in Tazavesh, but..)
All these little "Warcraft" hooks they could have played out in the Shadowlands. Obvious stories, of people looking for their loved ones and either finding them, or not because The Maw. What were the Kirin Tor spying for? Why didn't Koltira and Thalassian ever do anything with the rest of Bolvar's forces? Where's the Griftah secret?
What is the purpose?
I actually think the shadowlands is a great concept to explore from a lore perspective. It's one of the reasons I love DND so much. You can really get into all the insane cosmic and meta-stuff and look at that; THERE'S CONTENT THERE, full and fleshed out!
So really, the issue I have is not with Blizzard's current concept development, it's purely within execution.
The afterlife and cosmic-shit can be a great setting for a true RPG. There's a reason Realmscape Torment is a cult-classic.
But it needs to be told well, and that's the issue with blizzard. They aren't telling it well, and they are telling it through a medium which historically has had nothing to do with these things.
That's pretty bad, but the cardinal sin they're doing is that they aren't even sure what they themselves are doing with the concept. To make this kind of shit work, unless you're running with a linear story like FFXIV, you really need to sit down with something like WorldAnvil and just hammer out Lore page after Lore page. Otherwise, you end up with glaring plotholes…Like the ones we now see emerge in WoW.
Writing concepts like this is fantastical and fun, but it is in it's essence "world building" in it's very literal sense. And it's something that blizzard seems entirely inept at.
It's not enough to just tell a story here. You need to tell a world. A universe.
And Blizz hasn't even thought that far.
If the lorewriters themselves are so disconnected from their own world that they're building that they don't even catch huge plotholes and worldbreaking incongruities… Then that really does not bode well for the game.
yeah poor concept for the warcraft afterlife there,, sure looks cool but fuck its poorly designed lore/ressons behinde every thing xD
I am more concerned what the characters will do with the revelations discovered in shadowlands. The fact that the gods are just machines and the afterlife is nothing but a fuel purifier for even greater beings and that mortal souls are used as the fuel should start an existencial crisis in most of the cast. But I know Blizzard writers are not intelligent enough to realise this themselves.
Is azeroth still a titan soul? If we are in the middle, what pantheon does is belong to? is it some kind of 'first come, first serve'?
And if the planet is so special, how dumb is the jailer, that he creates the burning leagion that just wants to destroy it? Whats the plan if sageras does it? O_o
And is azeroth a robot aswell? g
Matt's comments about the cycle and such hit me hard with Mass Effect reaper vibes. Haha. Wipe the slate clean and start over yeah? H
Don't forget we have meta-multiverse now. So everything is fine at Azeroth-1 , but what about Azeroth-616, or Azeroth-919 etc. Endless eternities.
Crazzy thought: if the bad guy thought he had to stop a bad thing… might that just mean its a good thing for us? Like in "the enemy of my enemy is a friend"? – Not serious but still worth a thought.
I always thought the waystones activating because of our connection to Azeroth was speculation by the other azerothian NPCs present, not solid fact.
This is one of those, "can't put it back in the box" issues.
No you don't understand, if you die in the Shadowlands you go to the Shadowierlands, where the Ancient Councilors made the First Ones and the Shadowlands. So death isn't meaningless.
The idea that all the evil Gods in WoW all have and have always had an unknowing connection to a greater, darker, unfathomable will of some Dark Omni-Force sounds EXACTLY like what they're doing with The Great Darkness in DC Comics right now.
7:25 – Yep, that confirms it. "Ha! Fools! The absolute enemy of existence is also the enemy of evil, and only I, The God of Evil, can defeat it. No more hope! ONLY DARKSEID!" ~True Form Darkseid, Justice League Incarnate #4
Only for, you guessed it, Darkseid to find out in issue #5, in a plot twist that anyone with more than 5 braincells saw coming: Darkseid is a part of The Great Darkness's body as well.
Now here's the question. Why in the DC Comics spine story is this idea being handled so well and compelling, while in the Warcraft spine story it's crap that retroactively ruins, rather than retroactively expands in ways that feel like they were always coming, on preestablished characters and storylines? There's many reasons I think, but I think the biggest answer is writers. Good writers, good writers, and if I haven't stressed it enough GOOD WRITERS. Josh Williamson is the one handling The Great Darkness stuff and the upcoming Dark Crisis and he's the first person since Grant Morrison, being a Morrison junkie himself, who seems to truly "get" the soul of DC Comics as a whole.
Maybe that's the biggest thing, maybe the TLDR comes down to this: You surely won't get good lore in something if you don't at the very least hire people to write it that actually care about the lore.
people with meat bodies can get to the shadowlands now with portals, but if someone die and get in the shadowlands, they are just spirits, if you get them back to azeroth they would be undead, so, it is not without consequence, they don't have bodies anymore
but it is not like there is an undead faction with banshees and shades and other spirits among their ranks right? … did i forget someone one? i feel like i left someone behind
tldr: Chris Metzen left Blizzard
What a mess, where’s the “they’re always need to be a Lich king”
Why close the sky up, we already know that death is not the end
No responsibility for dying
To me, the last RPG element in WoW, were the ClassHalls and Main Storyline of Legion.
I specially enyoyed doing the Demon Hunter and Warlock; like that quest where we infiltrated the Shadow Council and Guldan regconised us. Or the Demon Hunter where we stole the Sargerite Key and Kiljaedeen came to confront us. And I regret not doing the Paladin and Death Kinght Quest what many people said were really good.
The point I liked, was what in the very begining of the expansion, WE were the main story. Our characters advansed their Class Halls, then it morphed naturally into the Main Story of the Nightborne. From them we continued our Clas Halls in the next pach and eventually morphing into the Temple lf Sargeras questline and finally Argus, where the Legion adknowledged our character when Agrammar himself came to kill us, and when our character was killed by Argus and revived by the Titans to kill a Sargeras Possesed Argus.
Legion was the final WoW expansion with a RPG elements what are now completly dead in the thematically death expansion Shadowlands where our characters doesnt mater. Shadowlands is now a movie game of MG4 MMO, but without the charm or good mechanics and creator brand…
We go to the galaxy to fight aliens now?
I just dont get whyyyyyyyyyy sealing sargeras wasnt good enough to finish the "first book of warcraft" then the Jailer and the shadow lands could be part of the set up for the future story, it was just all so unnecessary! and so forced! we could learn of the jailor exists learn about the shadow lands, learn there are multiple realms and factions with in the shadowlands all while staying on azeroth and defending it. The expansion should have been we defend azeroth from this new portal to the shadowlands (while dealing with other situations like some sort of rising troll empire type thing as a random example or maybe some evil time traveling dragons) we get a little glimpse into the shadowlands, a glimpse at a new big bad, there are threats other than the burning legion in the cosmos, we kill sylv we close the portal and we are safe again for a while. why did we have to go, experience the whole shadowlands and kill the titan+++ baddie all in one expansion to finish a story that was already done! IT WAS DONE! SARGEAS WAS GONE! IT STARTED WITH THE BURNING LEGION IT ENDED WITH THE BURNING LEGION! THATS THE FIRST BOOK DONE!
Blizzard closes because nobody wants this garbage company to exist any more. Then hopefully activision will die soon after
They keep claiming Shadowlands is the close of the first book of Warcraft. Directly conflicts with the more popular player sentiment that Legion was.
Your videos lately have been so negative and pessimistic it makes it hard to watch like everything blizzard does in your eyes is absolute trash and there is nothing to redeem them, and also FF14 is like the end all be all God apparently too 🙄🙄
sounds like mumbo jumbo to me