Read more about Shadowlands ➜ https://worldofwarcraft.mgn.tv
Blizzard is at the edge of giving in to negative feedback and pressure over the so-called “borrowed power” systems we’ve seen in Legion, Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands. So it might go away! I get why it’s a thing so I get into the discussion Game Director Ion Hazzikostas had with Mike from Preach Gaming before sort of going off the rails with where I’d like to see Blizzard’s efforts go towards instead.
0:00 3 2 1 start!
1:52 Ion statement on borrowered power
9:55 Reactions
19:26 More suggestions (warning, ranty)
Discord https://discord.gg/4T5VTpn
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/soulsobreezy
Soul’s Morning Stream – 830AM Tuesday through Thursday
Raid Streams – 7PM Tuesdays and Thursdays
https://www.twitch.tv/soulsobreezy
World of Warcraft and World of Warcraft: Shadowlands is developed by Blizzard Entertainment. Check them out or sign up to play for FREE up to level 20!
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/
#warcraft #shadowlands
source
Having a guild sanctum that your guild can work together and build up would be awesome. Let's be honest no one talks in major cities anymore. Having city features like portals and AH/Bank in your own guild sanctum is going to be so much more MMO than it currently is.
going into this video I was thinking what do we replace borrowed power with though. the only thing I can think is they need to stop adding verticle progression and start adding horizontal progression, Instead of another row on the talent tree add another column and have it unlock simmilar to how the PVP tree used to work. They would really need to fix some classes talents trees to do this though and go back to having better row identity.
EDIT: glad you agree
As someone who stops playing every xpac after the first patch Bc I hate borrowed power. I am very confused how any of this is any different than having to completely regear your char like 5 times every xpac?????
borrowed power seems like a easy way out if you want to release expansion after expansion with new devs and new ideas every 2 years. nice video
give us ability morphs and armour sets that complement play styles ala eso, it doesn't have to go as far in the freedom eso gives but if you could morph your core abilities as well as talent trees and sets wow real choice.
16:00 @SoulSoBreezy: Devs would have enough in their hands if they focused on actual content (new types of battle environment, better fight mechanics, breathtaking settings, actually new mobs), rather than disposable systems. Maybe the game engine has limits that can't be overcome (even if they've gone a long way since their original 2004 inception)?
Look, I don't mind the concept of soulbinds as an optional system to empower a companion we can take with us in the openworld: maybe that feature could be expanded in the future to become a full sellsword system, where I can hire NPCs to tackle hard "solo" challenges? The real problem comes from Devs using the above as a crutch for power progression which unsurprisingly turns into the Nth grind. Why?
And you know what? Ultimately many issues didn't even come from the newly implemented systems themselves but from the control-mania Devs have: don't you agree that BFA azerite gear would have been much more sufferable if, say, we could play with its… gears (pun intended) and experiment with power combinations without having to worry about the weekly limitations / respec costs? But no! They have to put a limitation so that you don't "feel compelled" to switch powers at every pull. They've been told they were wrong, they faced the consequences and oops they did it again…
im on blizzards side and you didnt convince me otherwise sorry.
i get it, it sucks to go from a ton of haste to close to none, but it is a necessary evil. if we didnt have power resets each expac, our power would spiral out of control exponentially, and we would end up with 0.01 sec GCDs, 200% crit chance and legendary procs popping out of our ass and ears non stop.
you say it feels bad to lose the hard earned progression, why? compared to who? compared to new players? would you insist on them having to grind all the AP, leggos tier sets etc from previous expacs, just to catch up, before they could play the new content? cmon now.
horisontal talents? more "choices" more dead talents.
the one thing that concerns me, you say next expansion. we haven't even gotten the first major patch this one. i don't think they have over a year's time to change things for the better. they need to fix it here, and soon. borrowed power has become an issue, yes, but elimination of loot drops the way they did it was also over-reacting. while lvlg an alt, go kill rares. all they drop now are junk, resources, and artifact power. one should get something useful as a reward. cosmetics seem paltry.
I'm still waiting for them to address the single player experience. I work odd hours, and none of my friends play anymore, and I can't stand pvp (too many poor sports there) so I can't get a decent set of armor due to raiding and dungeons being required to get better gear.
i dont mind borrowed powers if done right, legion was ok and blizzard argument about it is actually pretty good and correct imo
I think that just locking the borrwed power to a certain zones, lik if we didin't lose all the power that comes from artifact weapons or Hearth of azeroth, would be miles better than not being able to use it anymore. Just lock them to their expansion zones, and I think would be a lot better
I think it's impossible to remove any and all borrowed power systems in the game, but I was encouraged by what Ion said about it in the Preach interview, they want to find some middle ground which is a huge step in the right direction I think
I like borrowed power as a concept; like, "Here's some experimental stuff that we might want to incorporate into the class/spec, but we want to see how it plays out" and then adding that to the class's toolkit from what actually worked.
Like, between Cata and WoD, most characters were essentially the same, and the only variables were the talent tree overhaul in MoP and maybe tier set bonuses.
What I would like to see as a solution so that we can gain new abilities and fun ways of playing our characters, without having 30+ different abilities to find space for on our action bar, would be to have a pool of abilities, both active and utility. And in new expansions maybe we find an alternative active or utility ability that functions differently than our previous ability. An active ability would be something like Flash Heal or Devouring Plague, while a utility ability would be something like Levitate or Power word: Fortitude. And we swap out abilities.
I will use Shadow Priest as an example: Maybe you find an alternative to Shadow Word: Pain that causes fire damage instead of shadow, granting you a small benefit if you ever became shadow locked. Or maybe you could swap out Shadow Word: Pain for an instant cast spell with a 60 second cooldown that caused flat damage instead of damage over time.
This could grant player choice, without contributing to ability bloat. The extra challenge would be keeping the powers balanced, but borrowed powers are not balance currently, so I am not sure how much of a priority that needs to be.
What I would most like to see is the addition of combo powers. Powers that only become available to use after you have cast a certain preceding combination.
Again, using Spriest as an example, after casting Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, and Mind Blast, two new abilities become available to cast that you could not cast without that preceding combination. One ability might stun the target and cause the next spell to heal you for a percentage of the damage done (which would be helpful in solo content), or a spell that did a different damage over time ability (which would be better in group content).
Maybe there was a limited number of active abilities, utility abilities, and combo powers. Preferably something that aligned with our action bar so that you only had 8 to 10 active abilities, 6 or so utility abilities, and 3 or 4 combo powers. Maybe we could even swap out passive abilities. New content meant the possibility of discovering new ways to play our characters and new strategies to get the most out of our class for the kind of content we wanted to play. But you would still retain all of the things you already learned (even if you can use all of the things you have learned at the same time).
Yes, there will be guides that say to be the best at Raiding (single target) you need to unlock and slot the following abilities. However, if some of the choices are solely cosmetic that would be up to the players. Also, while there might be a small benefit for certain combinations in very specific encounters, players still will create their preferred setup based on the kind of content they usually play, when they are not pushing a certain Mythic or a particular Raid boss. And, from what I have seen, the top end players with the best gear sometimes get benefit from certain talents and borrowed powers that do not benefit people in more average gear, playing less difficult content. Those players may become more self-reliant on finding power combinations that best fit the play style they enjoy.
Face it bruh… wows dead.
I would be fine with borrowed power if it was still available after an expansion, still doable by people who start after the expansion it was in, BUT was limited to only the zones/instances the power was made for. Like Legion artifacts would still be usable and you're still able to power them up like when Legion was live, but that power only works in Legion content.
I wouldn't feel like the time and effort I put into such a system is meaningless, like I do now, because it isn't being taken away and amounting to nothing after the expansion is over.
DCUO has a pretty neat system for handling different talents. There are multiple different trees, one of which is devoted to powers from different heroes (lasso of truth / batarangs / etc).
Imagine, if you will, that at the end of Shadowlands, your covenant leader gives you an artifact that contains the power of your covenant. That artifact gets brought to the rune carver, and forged into something that you then take to your order hall. This item will empower your old artifact interface in your order hall to empower a new, ever growing list of powers. You can then select x number of powers.
Going forward, new expansions unlock new abilities, while the player chooses which ones they want to use. To change, return to the order hall.
We could even call it something snazzy, like Artifact Power…
Added bonus, it brings back order halls, thus bringing back some class fantasy.
feels like borrowed powers over an expansion feels bad.
Some overlapping could be cool! keeping systems/powers 2-3 expensions instead of 1
imagine keeping Artifact weapons after legion, maybe needing to reinfuse them with azerite inside of the shitty azerite armor. then idk, you leave them in azeroth when going to shadowlands…
Blizz biggest problem is that they always want to reinvent the wheel every xpac, that means they'll fail sometimes, maybe most times!
Keeping sucessful systems is great! and keeping some of the system's power over xpac would feel progression-oriented.
Loosing some after a while would feel better than going back full barebone at the start of every xpac
Well, when you really look close, "traditional" tier set bonuses like we had from vanilla through Legion were also basically nothing more than another form of borrowed power..
The problem is the way it´s been implemented post WoD., or rather how they continue to implement it post Legion. The Legion artifact and legendary systems were a cool way to do it, *for one expansion*. IMO the mistake they made was going full ham with that concept in BfA with the heart of azeroth, which as we all know eventually turned into a total clownshow in 9.3 with corruptions, and essences, and….
Not to mention that it eventually gets really stale from a lore and player agency perspective if you´re basically just a Taxi for an Item that will save the world with or without you for 2 entire expansions…..
But on the other hand, how many skill points are we supposed to eventually have if they were to throw the idea out the window and just give us another talenrt every , say, 5 levels….. That eventually becomes an even greater nightmare to balance, and it´s not really sustainable in teh long term, because you eventually don´t really have anything left to do but give everything in the way of niche skills to everyone, which was one of the primary player complaints starting in MoP /WoD.
TL;DR: in summary, I don´t really have a problem with borrowed power in and of itself, and it´s really kind of been at the core of WoW since day 1. My issue is more with the way it´s been presented and implemented for the last 4+ years as opposed to the 10+ years preceding them.
I would trade covenants and the maw for slightly more complex class tier sets and old style craft able leggos. and honestly i loved artifact weapons but I get why people didn't like it, in the end it was super grindy.
Ah the blizzard contradiction! We couldn’t add talents as it would get messy……but talents + covenant ability’s + soul binds + legendarys + domination powers will be just fine 🤦♂️ they need to scrap these shitty systems and put the saved dev time into class and spec mechanics and also overhaul the talent system that hasn’t been touched since cata. Talents are the core and only power system there should be, gear and set bonuses are an enhancement to the mechanics and talents of your class. Mop was a pinocle example of this. Also alts, what don’t they get about alt friendly? Personally I want to level and begin gearing, not level and begin another grind of covenants, renown and conducts.
TOTALLY AGREE! I really think at the very beginning of your WOW experience at L1 a mystical voice comes to the player, let’s say it’s Azeroth, they imbue you with immortality and a gift, the gift is kind of like being a a super syan everyone you defeat you get stronger, which we kind of do anyway but then it will make sense when we eventually fight cosmic forces and it can go on and on and on
Having to start from square one, blows. What's the point of getting super high in I level if it's just gonna reset next expansion?
Gotta be honest. I played Shadowlands for maybe over a month. I farmed my mage to max level, got a legendary, farmed up some resources, did a couple of dungeons…and realized that I had to get back on the loot treadmill to do anything else on my character. I leveled a couple alts, did the same, got to the same point…and I logged off and just didn't want to play anymore. I just unsubbed a couple days ago because I realized that I hadn't played WoW in a couple of months. I analyzed why and realized it was because of this very topic. I realized that no matter what I did, it had no lasting impact on my characters and it demotivated me to even play the game in the first place.
In TBC (when I started) my gear didn't really matter, but learning the skills and leveling my character had a lasting impact into the next expansion. Unlocking things like flying was worth the time investment because you knew that it was going to go with you. Then in Wrath, I got more skills which I had to learn and incorporate into my playstyle. I got more talent points, I had more build choices and I had to learn it. The stats changed, the skills changed, the concepts changed. It wasn't much, but learning that new skill carried over to the next time around when getting a new skill changed things up again.
That is a feeling of progressing. Gaining new abilities, gaining new talents, gaining more potency as a character. That feeling that what you are working on will carry over to the next expansion and beyond. Not gaining a skill I'm gonna spend a load of time learning, then remove it so I lose all that progress I made.
They said long ago that they were having problems with too many systems stacking on top of one another and it was becoming too much to manage. To that I say…and the problem is…? That is what makes a game fun and interesting is having loads of things to customize to build a character, it gives people something to work on and work towards.
I could go on, but honestly, this is longer than I intended to go. Tl;dr: I quit because I felt like the work I was doing was only gonna last till the end of this expansion when before Legion, I felt like what I was building was more impactful and permanent.
I think one reason gear as borrowed power doesn't compare, is that we gave those things up voluntarily. Sure, that tier set bonus might be awesome…but this gear is still just plain better, so we chose on our own to move on. Where the current borrowed power systems don't give us that choice, things are just turned off at Blizzard's whim. It's much more jarring to go "well, you dinged a level, now that legendary piece no longer works" than it would be to simply offer replacement gear that made players go, "yeah, that legendary ability was sweet, but these green shoulders are so much better I just can't say no."
i love your ideas! the horizontally added talenttrees especially. And for player housing: It is about damn time now. And the potential is ENDLESS. Blizz would make players so happy by implementing it, could revive professions with recipes for interior like chairs and rugs and flowers and would also encourage people to go kill that old raid boss, go and do that achievement, go and try harder to kill that new raidboss and hang his head on your guildhall. And the MAUs they could produce with that! its like Transmogrification: a evergreen system with endless potential, much player envolvement and a massive time sink people want to do. My only guess is why they have not implemented it: its their "press button in case of emergency" Nr1 and they wait for the right time 🙁
I think if Blizz had brought back tier sets and given an extra talent row, people would have been overjoyed and happy without covenant perks. I very much like your idea of an expanded talent tree sideways. Not a thought that had occurred to me before
Go play FFX XIV for your ugly housing and guess what even in that game, it sucks, I’ve played FFX 14 and lived there housing systems, waste of energy and time while they can put that team to make adventures in the wild or other better innovations.
I’m good actually. If we just got to max level next expansion and progressing our characters outside of just gear was over I think I’d quit.
A sense of progression is vital to an RPG. Gear doesn’t do a good enough job of providing that progression, especially modern gear that is hyper homogenized.
Plus it seems like literally anything more interesting than the bland stats on gear is considered “borrowed power” so if removed there would be nothing cool to strive to attain. Again, causing me to lose interest in the game.
We've always had borrowed power since this game started. They just made it more explicit, instead of hiding it with class overhauls. The way it was implemented by the end of Legion was the perfect way to implement it– but in BFA and Shadowlands it's horrible because it's not even part of your class.
I can see that from the business and developer side borrowed power is a great thing. It really mitigates power creep a lot. But as a player having all your 'cool toys' taken away every two years doesn't feel great. And it makes professions fairly useless because all that hard work you did means nothing as soon as the next expansion drops; you're essentially set back to zero.
I say NO to borrowed power! 👍 But then I also said no to resubscribing too. 😉
Here's a concrete way to make Blizz recognize your vote against borrowed power: quit Shadowlands. Whether that means moving over to Classic full time or another game entirely. But, yeah, Blizz is so slow to learn their lesson because of their stupid metrics. So fudge their metrics.
So much this…too bad its many have been saying this for awhile and blizz isn't doing anything. There is hope but it may be too late
Good luck stacking expansion feature on top of expansion feature on top of expansion feature. And thats just 3 expansions. How do people think this should work? Either you get exiting new stuff or you keep your old stuff and get bored. Im fine with new stuff every expansion. That doesnt mean everything is fine now. Things can improve for sure.
Yes gear and set bonuses are technically borrowed power but we voluntarily choose to give them up for better stuff. Unlike the last few expansions that take them from us.
The horizontally expanding talent choices is a good idea. And maybe what you do on the last one you choose it's a free choice on any of the rows. Because how many of us have looked at a row and gone "Man… if only I could have this one and that one!" While at the same time not liking any choice on a specific row.
I think the last time I got any use out of crafting armor sets was Wrath of the Lich King.
Torgast AS player housing! Everyone gets their own cell! 😉
Why can't covenant be about cosmetics and animation. Let all covenant ability for the class be the same and the difference is just how it looks when activated. Blizz gave us false choices and in the interview refused to acknowledge that.
Blizz…”please, just don’t do it”.
I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree.
I am a fan of borrowed powers and think the game would be quite boring without them.
Provided they are implemented correctly (like the Legion artifacts or Shadowlands Soulbinds in parts), borrowed powers change the way a character plays and that's what I look forward to with every expansion and major patch.
If the class mechanics of my character always stayed the same, I would soon get very bored.
Now you could say that Blizzard should change the basic mechanics of the classes every now and then instead, as they have done in the past. But isn't that just another kind of borrowed power, if I know that the way my character currently works is only temporary?
By the way, borrowed powers existed long before Legion – they were called equipment sets and even if you do not seem to count them as borrowed power the are.
And before someone tells me that I should just play alts if I need variety: I don't like that for RP reasons.
I've been playing the same main character since WoW was released in 2005.
I want his legend to continue growing, he should collect all the achievements and titles, and achieve exalted reputation with various races of Azeroth, not some random alt.
Borrowed powers? Yes please!
What I need in terms of game mechanics is not constant growth (adding new stuff on top of existing) but rather constant change (replacing existing stuff with new and exciting).
Feel free to disagree with me here, but am I the only one that doesn't really care about character growth that much? (besides getting better gear)
Like, all I really want from an expansion is a new story, new zone, raids, dungeons, pvp, and then some kind of expansion specific hub/cosmetic stuff, e.g. like if covenants were just cosmetic and storyline.
I don't need new spells every expansion. Blizz tweak and sometimes outright re- invent classes each expansion anyway due to balancing, so why do we need 3-5 NEW abilities on top of that and stuff like tier sets?
I've seen people say stuff like "oh so you just want another BC/ Wrath/ Cata then??"
…yeah, tbh. I do.
I had fun in those expansions lmao, instead of having to learn how to use blizzard's umpteenth re- invention of the wheel. (looking at you azerite & soulbinds)
Borrowed Power isn't bad, per se. It's just that at this point we've gone through so many of them, that it starts to detach us from our Characters and the Game World. Expansion specific systems aren't bad, but when the focus is so much on trying to engineer the perfect game experience, what is lost is the fun, and stuff to do. Simpler systems would allow the Devs to save resources to create fun things to do, explore cool places and stories. It would also allow for growing the game, giving us something that we can take with us. We haven't really had any of that since M+, really.
Adding talents that are related to the past expansion would have been a good way to go. We would still be at around 12 talent levels which isn't too bad.
Legion- learn from artifacts
BFA- learn from old god tech
SL- learn from Torghast
Gear sets, weapons, talent tree, professions, and boss drops is all that is needed. The rest can go in the garbage.