36 thoughts on “Why You SUCK At Mythic+ (And How To Fix It) – World of Warcraft Dungeons”
Another thing is the Leaver Rate of the community in LFG hinders your own personal Progression as well because it takes a ton of time to actually finish a key bc the moment the key is not timeable or wipes happen then someone leaves and you have to start all over.
It's pretty rough tbh, even around the 18-23 range people still dont know all the mechanics/dont have things like invis as I've come to discover in my alt keys. Then, once you progress further you enter the territory of spending all day in group finder.
It's a lose lose for competitive people who dont have time for premades. Cant chill and do medium keys because half the players are actual bots and no one likes spending all day in lfg.
That first tip is like making a video on how to be better at basketball and "grow a foot taller" is the advice. (Yes, it's not the same, but to me the advice hits the same, we're not all well connected content creators or super high end mythic raiders with guildmates)
I think most people do not do higher keys becouse they really dont care about doing anything over +20 and not becouse they cant do it. Dungeon +20 give you the best loot and the dungeon portal. There is no other reason to do anything higher, except if you want to get the world title.
Just adding 5 people without the points you listed won't change anything, however if you add 4-5 people who want to get better at the game then it will make a huge difference.
As per the points you mentioned I feel that there is a huge issue with FOTM rerollers. Being a FOTM reroller doesn't mean anything, in fact you can be a great player, however based on my experience in 26-27 keys those players are the reason why keys fail most of the time. The most egoistic, but least knowledgable players. The other thing is self reflection. I have had numerous pug keys where I was far the highest interrupter / CC-er / Affix handler but due to others not interrupting and cc-ing (+ healer re-realizing when or how to heal) I died –> obviously DPS loss. In the end sometimes these people whisper me and say "nice overall" or "wtf [insert class name]", etc even if marginally lower. I learned to shrug it off, since when I'm at 45 interrupt and a 3.5k rogue is at 1, then I cannot care lesser that he is able to survive therefore doing more DPS. But for some reason these people never take a look at the overall picture, they overly simplify the formula:
Am I the highest DPS = I'm good, nothing else matters. So doing 20-30k more dps justifies the 1 cc, 1 interrupt and 20k overall more dmg taken than me.
Just had a lovely 26 Rise where 3450 tank (VDH) literally couldn't group trash mobs, used all CC-s withing 7 seconds (even though there was no danger), constantly turned Tyr even though group moved really well, semi-wiped us on Battleground, actively tried to hit melee dps with tank frontal on morchie and wiped us 2x on because he died out of nowhere. But due to high DPS we still had a real chance until on last he killed my friend because he realized Deios should be moved. Thankfully he blamed my friend for inting the key. When I tried to explain the tank what he did wrong he replied in such a great way "haha, just let me know when you are at 3450 noob". So until you can get 3450 with 1. being not knowledgable about the dungeon 2. not understanding how your class / specs / role works 3. You get invited because you are a tank and there is still huge demand and eventually you time keys –> more score –> more invite
Then I think there won't be any real change. In my opinion there should be some statistics added to RIO such as CC-s done, affix done, interrupts with some extra statistics e.g. "average interrupt / key" (with filter for dungeon and key level) and I can guarantee many people would struggle to expoit the system, but would reward those who actively try to help their group 🙂
I kind of have to disagree with the first point. Yes you will perform better if you can play with the same group and get better at doing what is specifically asked of you in that group. But at the same time you will also just not be as well rounded of a player. You will become less aware of certain mechanics because your group allows you to not worry about them.
Beside whether or not it makes you better is kind of irrelevant since ultimately most people simply don't have the choice to begin with.
I don’t think the wowhead guide is accurate, take bm hunter for example, they recommmend haste and mastery, but it should be crit/haste/mastery balanced. Meh
The biggest thing for me was knowledge. I always felt confused and had no plan going into dungeons, but after learning what each and every mob does I significantly improved, also learning your own class, rotation, etc.
Damn, as a mage a list of what to prio interrupts on and why would be tight af. Kinda just focus on the most devastating casts wild shit like wildfire or water bolts are going off and it feels like shit lol
"Pugging is bad" Well no shit. But i've been trying to get into a team for the first two months of the season as resto shaman, and people were either just quitting on first failed key or not showing up at all for the next m+ session, or just failing really bad for the level of they keys we've been attempting. I've exclusively pugged to most 25s/26s and i'm stuck at trying to get into 27s simply because i'm not getting invited to any keys at all, because i play resto shaman. I know for a fact that with a PMA and coordinated team i'd definitely heal some 28s. I'm now fine with the fact that 26s are my ceiling, i'd rather play some other game than either play the queue simulator for an hour just to be invited to one key, or gambling keys with random people who die with all their defensives off cd. My point is that there is no easy solution (or sometimes none at all) to the "pugging is bad" situation, there are players stuck in the lfg purgatory that could easily play their role at 3-4 higher key levels than their current.
As a healer, I disagree with your first point. It's important to pug to test what you can and can't do. To feel what stressful damage intake is like. There is literally no better training for healer than to pug keys. Also not a single time did you mention Stat balancing like hello.
The things you are talking about are true in theory but not in practice. You can do the highest keys while pugging and you don’t even need to be very good. You just need to play a meta class, play all day every day and eventually if you are at least decent player you will get to the highest possible pug keys. Example: all the disappointingly average mage pugs that are around 3750-3.8k rio this season. I played havoc, got to 3.6k and stopped getting invites. Rerolled to ret and got 3750 in 3 weeks of starting the toon. Did I become a better player? No and I even believe I am better havoc than ret so that should give ppl an idea of how high score is done. Play all day, play meta boys
I really can't disagree that Pugging & LFG is bad because there are so many bad players out there that it's impossible to know how to improve. I'm a tank player myself and i always get blamed for not having aggro, but when i look at my recordings then there are just rushing ahead and ninjapulling which doesn't make it any easier for us tanks and we kind of have to use 1-2 abilities before the dps can use their cds.
Same thing actually goes for healers. People like to point out how bad the healers are in the groups but then the people themselves never actually stun, interrupt or even use defensives.
Thanks. I agree. I think you inadvertently build-in compensations to your game when in a pug. Long term that will cause a plateau. Very insightful. Thank you.
I understand why he said it, but I kind of disagree with the first point about pugs. Yes, if you're going to push the highest keys possible, you need a solid group and you need repeatable results, absolutely true. And I think that's why he said it. But I think improving at anything is about challenging yourself, and pugs can sure be a challenge. Being thrown into chaotic, sub-optimal situations forces you to get creative in ways a solid, high pushing group doesn't. Moreover, I have at least at some anecdotal evidence that I don't learn something until it affects me. If I have a solid group of players that have always taken care of X, then I'll never learn what X is or how to handle it. I see this a lot in players going from normal to heroic raids a lot. They're solid players in normal, they put up the numbers, but other people always handle mechanics for them. Then you get to Heroic and the same mechanic requires everyone do it at some point and they fall to pieces. I guess TL:DR pugs can put you outside your comfort zone and that's a good time to learn.
I get the point it's better to play with a fixed team ; but it's really hard to find a group… I pretty much waste every season pugging until i'm fed up and I give up playing and trying to find people. I've pretty much tried everything available to find people but it's really hard. If anyone have advice on somewhere I can find a group, it would help
I play a druid heal and I noticed that I used some of my abilities not often enough, so I wrote me some simple WA that remind me to use them. It helped me a lot to push out more heal. I should use my Flourish more.
I can only play very irregular so I most of the time play in pugs with maybe 1 other person I know. I log all my keys (private log I only want the option to check what happened in some situations) and how often people don't use any deff CD baffels me. I had some WM 24 runs last weeks and I noticed that many people die and I wonder if I do something completly wrong.
A hunter died in the council fight to the DoT in Phase 3 (the DoT you need to heal over 90%). He didn't use a deff CD, no healing pot/hs/self heal. Nothing, he just ticks down. Mage dies to the channel trash mob + spits from the worms. His first damage tick he gets was 8 seconds before he died. He used his 70% dmg reduction deff CD 0,2 seconds before he died. I sit here and wonder why people die and they are in 24s and don't use any deff CD. That are the moments were I am surprised how they even reach these keys.
Wish there were better tools for finding consistent groups as a dps, trying to pug the hardest challenge is just getting in. Right now I have the easy 28s and the hard 27s, so i dont have the io to do the easy 29s but also not to do the hard 28s so im just in queue for hours.
Actually pugging helps if you have your prio straight, pugging doesnt allow for optimized plays but it forces the player to master their own individual plays. For eg, if you only play dps pugging, switch over to heal or tank, it will be tilting sometimes but trust me, it will refine your dungeon knowledge and help you be a better you. Its actually a good start…
Wildly tone deaf and just not remotely close to usable when tip 1 is find a fixed group of players.. As someone who has pugged up to 3600 and sometimes plays with a set of 3 players pugging 2 players, this is also just… not correct? Puging and relying on yourself will force you to learn all forms of utility and things you can do to make every mob and boss smoother even if it is suboptimal in some fixed comps.
Another thing is the Leaver Rate of the community in LFG hinders your own personal Progression as well because it takes a ton of time to actually finish a key bc the moment the key is not timeable or wipes happen then someone leaves and you have to start all over.
It's pretty rough tbh, even around the 18-23 range people still dont know all the mechanics/dont have things like invis as I've come to discover in my alt keys. Then, once you progress further you enter the territory of spending all day in group finder.
It's a lose lose for competitive people who dont have time for premades. Cant chill and do medium keys because half the players are actual bots and no one likes spending all day in lfg.
It feels like like pugging teaches out how to react to complete shit storms. Pug for awhile and then find a group and its smooth sailing.
That first tip is like making a video on how to be better at basketball and "grow a foot taller" is the advice. (Yes, it's not the same, but to me the advice hits the same, we're not all well connected content creators or super high end mythic raiders with guildmates)
I usually love your content man, but this is a person who does highly m+ being completely out of touch of the main player base
I think most people do not do higher keys becouse they really dont care about doing anything over +20 and not becouse they cant do it. Dungeon +20 give you the best loot and the dungeon portal. There is no other reason to do anything higher, except if you want to get the world title.
Just adding 5 people without the points you listed won't change anything, however if you add 4-5 people who want to get better at the game then it will make a huge difference.
As per the points you mentioned I feel that there is a huge issue with FOTM rerollers. Being a FOTM reroller doesn't mean anything, in fact you can be a great player, however based on my experience in 26-27 keys those players are the reason why keys fail most of the time. The most egoistic, but least knowledgable players. The other thing is self reflection. I have had numerous pug keys where I was far the highest interrupter / CC-er / Affix handler but due to others not interrupting and cc-ing (+ healer re-realizing when or how to heal) I died –> obviously DPS loss. In the end sometimes these people whisper me and say "nice overall" or "wtf [insert class name]", etc even if marginally lower. I learned to shrug it off, since when I'm at 45 interrupt and a 3.5k rogue is at 1, then I cannot care lesser that he is able to survive therefore doing more DPS. But for some reason these people never take a look at the overall picture, they overly simplify the formula:
Am I the highest DPS = I'm good, nothing else matters. So doing 20-30k more dps justifies the 1 cc, 1 interrupt and 20k overall more dmg taken than me.
Just had a lovely 26 Rise where 3450 tank (VDH) literally couldn't group trash mobs, used all CC-s withing 7 seconds (even though there was no danger), constantly turned Tyr even though group moved really well, semi-wiped us on Battleground, actively tried to hit melee dps with tank frontal on morchie and wiped us 2x on because he died out of nowhere. But due to high DPS we still had a real chance until on last he killed my friend because he realized Deios should be moved. Thankfully he blamed my friend for inting the key. When I tried to explain the tank what he did wrong he replied in such a great way "haha, just let me know when you are at 3450 noob". So until you can get 3450 with
1. being not knowledgable about the dungeon
2. not understanding how your class / specs / role works
3. You get invited because you are a tank and there is still huge demand and eventually you time keys –> more score –> more invite
Then I think there won't be any real change. In my opinion there should be some statistics added to RIO such as CC-s done, affix done, interrupts with some extra statistics e.g. "average interrupt / key" (with filter for dungeon and key level) and I can guarantee many people would struggle to expoit the system, but would reward those who actively try to help their group 🙂
I kind of have to disagree with the first point. Yes you will perform better if you can play with the same group and get better at doing what is specifically asked of you in that group. But at the same time you will also just not be as well rounded of a player. You will become less aware of certain mechanics because your group allows you to not worry about them.
Beside whether or not it makes you better is kind of irrelevant since ultimately most people simply don't have the choice to begin with.
Don’t quit caffeine or be really sick and play keys. I learned that this week. Minus 10 key levels instantly. Plus LFG can be super toxic.
#1 enemy of pugging is people who judges.
I don’t think the wowhead guide is accurate, take bm hunter for example, they recommmend haste and mastery, but it should be crit/haste/mastery balanced. Meh
I love you tettles
The biggest thing for me was knowledge. I always felt confused and had no plan going into dungeons, but after learning what each and every mob does I significantly improved, also learning your own class, rotation, etc.
Boomkin one trick
Title and thumbnail game on point.
All I do is pug and I hate it stuck at 3.3k as a prot/dps warrior
Bro, don't call Spriest to CC the incorporeal, obviously better for them to DPS and these scrubs to CC.
Damn, as a mage a list of what to prio interrupts on and why would be tight af. Kinda just focus on the most devastating casts wild shit like wildfire or water bolts are going off and it feels like shit lol
"Pugging is bad"
Well no shit. But i've been trying to get into a team for the first two months of the season as resto shaman, and people were either just quitting on first failed key or not showing up at all for the next m+ session, or just failing really bad for the level of they keys we've been attempting.
I've exclusively pugged to most 25s/26s and i'm stuck at trying to get into 27s simply because i'm not getting invited to any keys at all, because i play resto shaman. I know for a fact that with a PMA and coordinated team i'd definitely heal some 28s.
I'm now fine with the fact that 26s are my ceiling, i'd rather play some other game than either play the queue simulator for an hour just to be invited to one key, or gambling keys with random people who die with all their defensives off cd.
My point is that there is no easy solution (or sometimes none at all) to the "pugging is bad" situation, there are players stuck in the lfg purgatory that could easily play their role at 3-4 higher key levels than their current.
As a healer, I disagree with your first point. It's important to pug to test what you can and can't do. To feel what stressful damage intake is like. There is literally no better training for healer than to pug keys. Also not a single time did you mention Stat balancing like hello.
You suck because you don't play meta.
The things you are talking about are true in theory but not in practice. You can do the highest keys while pugging and you don’t even need to be very good. You just need to play a meta class, play all day every day and eventually if you are at least decent player you will get to the highest possible pug keys. Example: all the disappointingly average mage pugs that are around 3750-3.8k rio this season. I played havoc, got to 3.6k and stopped getting invites. Rerolled to ret and got 3750 in 3 weeks of starting the toon. Did I become a better player? No and I even believe I am better havoc than ret so that should give ppl an idea of how high score is done. Play all day, play meta boys
nobodys gonna take any advice from you with hair like that. like wtf where u thinkin
Pugging is like bullying, you either learn from it and get good and become a bully or you are pussy
I really can't disagree that Pugging & LFG is bad because there are so many bad players out there that it's impossible to know how to improve.
I'm a tank player myself and i always get blamed for not having aggro, but when i look at my recordings then there are just rushing ahead and ninjapulling which doesn't make it any easier for us tanks and we kind of have to use 1-2 abilities before the dps can use their cds.
Same thing actually goes for healers. People like to point out how bad the healers are in the groups but then the people themselves never actually stun, interrupt or even use defensives.
Thanks. I agree. I think you inadvertently build-in compensations to your game when in a pug. Long term that will cause a plateau. Very insightful. Thank you.
I understand why he said it, but I kind of disagree with the first point about pugs. Yes, if you're going to push the highest keys possible, you need a solid group and you need repeatable results, absolutely true. And I think that's why he said it. But I think improving at anything is about challenging yourself, and pugs can sure be a challenge. Being thrown into chaotic, sub-optimal situations forces you to get creative in ways a solid, high pushing group doesn't. Moreover, I have at least at some anecdotal evidence that I don't learn something until it affects me. If I have a solid group of players that have always taken care of X, then I'll never learn what X is or how to handle it. I see this a lot in players going from normal to heroic raids a lot. They're solid players in normal, they put up the numbers, but other people always handle mechanics for them. Then you get to Heroic and the same mechanic requires everyone do it at some point and they fall to pieces. I guess TL:DR pugs can put you outside your comfort zone and that's a good time to learn.
I get the point it's better to play with a fixed team ; but it's really hard to find a group… I pretty much waste every season pugging until i'm fed up and I give up playing and trying to find people. I've pretty much tried everything available to find people but it's really hard. If anyone have advice on somewhere I can find a group, it would help
All I got out of this is – get friends to play with. Great advice. Thanks!
I play a druid heal and I noticed that I used some of my abilities not often enough, so I wrote me some simple WA that remind me to use them. It helped me a lot to push out more heal. I should use my Flourish more.
I can only play very irregular so I most of the time play in pugs with maybe 1 other person I know.
I log all my keys (private log I only want the option to check what happened in some situations) and how often people don't use any deff CD baffels me. I had some WM 24 runs last weeks and I noticed that many people die and I wonder if I do something completly wrong.
A hunter died in the council fight to the DoT in Phase 3 (the DoT you need to heal over 90%). He didn't use a deff CD, no healing pot/hs/self heal. Nothing, he just ticks down.
Mage dies to the channel trash mob + spits from the worms. His first damage tick he gets was 8 seconds before he died. He used his 70% dmg reduction deff CD 0,2 seconds before he died.
I sit here and wonder why people die and they are in 24s and don't use any deff CD. That are the moments were I am surprised how they even reach these keys.
Do you have the group CC WA somewhere?
Your first take isn't controversial, it's $hit
Wish there were better tools for finding consistent groups as a dps, trying to pug the hardest challenge is just getting in. Right now I have the easy 28s and the hard 27s, so i dont have the io to do the easy 29s but also not to do the hard 28s so im just in queue for hours.
this fuckin douchebag just said get friends as his number 1 spot. there is no way this fool is fuckin real
Actually pugging helps if you have your prio straight, pugging doesnt allow for optimized plays but it forces the player to master their own individual plays. For eg, if you only play dps pugging, switch over to heal or tank, it will be tilting sometimes but trust me, it will refine your dungeon knowledge and help you be a better you. Its actually a good start…
Wildly tone deaf and just not remotely close to usable when tip 1 is find a fixed group of players..
As someone who has pugged up to 3600 and sometimes plays with a set of 3 players pugging 2 players, this is also just… not correct?
Puging and relying on yourself will force you to learn all forms of utility and things you can do to make every mob and boss smoother even if it is suboptimal in some fixed comps.