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PirateSoftware DIRE MAUL CONTROVERSY discussed by Grubby (Live on 12-January-2025)
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I think the criticism of "making excuses" in your analysis is legitimate but I'll actually explain, I feel in this analysis your giving infinite grace to Pirate who is a former Wow-dev and has played the game quite a lot and basically only plays other MMO's, where your giving 0 grace to Yamato who is a league streamer so he's basically new to this.
As far as I know the experience in this group goes like this -> (1) Ozy, Ozy's been playing the game forever and is extremely good at it on retail and specifically classic as well (2) snupy, he has more high level wow experience but its on retail and he's pretty "fresh" to classic (3/4) Pirate/Sarah Pirate was a dev for the game, has played classic and retail pretty consistently for like 20 years not like a high-level dueler or leaderboard pusher but knows the game VERY VERY well, Sarah also seems pretty experienced but I honestly don't know so he could be higher or lower but I would guess around Pirates experience (5) easily least experienced is Yamato who is basically playing WoW "for the first time", not actually the first time but it might as well be
There are a bunch of clips showing Pirate in days/weeks prior basically watching other mages do exactly this type of immediate abandonment and talk about how it "hurt to watch" implying he himself thinks its a serious offense and talking to people about how important it is for mages to know that they are "control characters" and that he specifically specced into imp blizz to "save groups" so these are the expectations he has not only for the good mages but just mages in general.
Meanwhile Yamato again is a league streamer he's pretty much new to this, hasn't like claimed to know how rogues should play things out or anything like that and he's still TRYING to do something throughout even though he's in melee range of those hyena's like the whole time and if he had just kept meleeing as he went half or more would've been dead.
The mistake of Yamato being inexperienced clearly paniccing (he's no the shot caller but HE's the one who called run and no one who has more experience called to overwrite him) is MUCH MUCH more reasonable when you consider his experience, him seeing everyone else tryna kite to stay alive and ONE person being not just safe distance but like 3 corners ahead and back turned probably incited a knee-jerk reaction not a "thinking about saying this, ill go ahead and say it".
It's significantly less reasonable for someone who has that much experience and has basically declared other mages to not be playing the basics of the character right to make the same mistake that they did and NOT admit after the fact that he made the same mistake that he has criticized.
Also as a final note I think a lot of people looking at this are taking it way easy on Pirate because it seems like everyone else is coming to the same conclusion that he screwed up and it seems like everyone's dogpiling him but that shouldn't factor in at all in terms of if he screwed up or how much he screwed up (like if 100 people decide he screwed up that doesnt mean the 101rst should feel sorry about that and decide that he didnt screw up), plus the only reason it looks like that is because all the other people in the group pretty much immediately defused the situation by admitting their faults and that they could've played better.
As a priest main, I think it's part of any healer's nature to automatically respond to any teammate's call for healing, even though sometimes it may not be the most optimized thing to do. We are practically conditioned to that lol.
Tank should stand with his back to the uncleared mobs. You cannot trust meleers to watch out for a patrol or something unforseen therefore you have to take on that responsibility as well, as a tank. Also if you tank so that the mobs are facing away from the group then it's the tank, who controls the pull distance, that will be the one to feel threatened by being too close, rather than the dps like the rogue did here, and bad dps'ers wont parryhaste, you don't risk breaths, cleaves are less dangerous etcetc. It is great practice for the tank to face the mob away from group.
Cant wait till this WoW phase is over. Even dota2 was more intertaining to watch.
Yes he roached, could have done more BUT the blame goes to:
1st place: Snupy — for actually pulling the other group
2nd place: Ozzy — for not doing LoS pull and keeping them close to the other mob group.
Only one I'm sorry for is Sara. Go agane.
Atleast people now know that they cant depend on Pirate to save them, a lot of people have been making sure to have a mage in their group because theyre the god class at saving the group if things go sideways.
Like, you can tell Pirate is just fed up with Yam. Still a shame that in the heat of the moment two people lost their characters from these personal grudges. Like, if this was my friends I'd do anything to help but if it was a bunch of randoms agressively filling the coms with this type of talk, I'd just book it and never look back. No way Im putting my hours on the line for the type of person that question mark ping spams in League.
Big thumbs up for your analysis of the situation.. very well rounded taking a lot into consideration. I just can't understand the very hardened stance of Pirate and feel heavily let down by that.
No one is mentioning they should not be going through the court yard. They should be going around to the right. The tank doesn’t know how to run a safe tribute run. A “safe” tribute run is already very dangerous. With the way they are playing they are lucky they wiped here, If they had made it to the last guard likely full party wipe or only yamato would have survived.
Grubby, that was the most konstructive and intelligent recap of this situation i have seen so far. Appreciate you calm and logical way to break the situatution down. I think this is the most helpful way … in mids of all the drama and bait.
No Grubby forgot that pirate just blinked away and put hight tier blizzards before Snupy jump pulled aggro from patrols on the ramp, Yam called healhim, atagonized pirate.
If you're out of mana the last thing you want to do is blink every time its off cd unless you need to – Yes it's a "i don't have to out run the mobs, I have to outrun you" situation, but he's a mage and will always get out, he only needs 1 blink to stay ahead of his group. If he does not press any buttons he plays that better than what he did. I appreciate your psychological breakdown, I think its very much on point but you have to also appreciate that Pirate had 3 different options (CoC, Bliz and Nova) which would have all immedietly saved everybody – the abundance of ways to save them is what makes this so roachy – At the same time he had an abundance of ways to not die, double iceblock, he has a double mana gem in essence and he has tons of mana even without gems if he just nova's, blinks and stops casting while he stays with group and repeats if needed. I think the combination of him being a noob, panicking and on the defensive overwhelmed his reasoning ability like you insinuated. Pirate probably hasn't ever been in a dungeon with a mage, but to a WoW player saving the group here is something akin to muscle memory, we've seen the situation, we've wiped and we've been saved by mages and know that this is not dangerous because of the mage, yet he is blinking out. It's unfortunate, I hope Pirate doesn't regret playing the game because of this.
Watch Pirates cam when he exits the dungeon. He takes a sip of his water, looks at chat and does not even look at their health bars to see if they are making it out.
if your talking about psychological decisions. There was a general expectation for a mage to kite it out with them. When the call was made for the healer to heal. it wasnt int. It was made under the expectations the mage would do their role which would make the call to heal right. Of course, the call to heal is bad if the mage doesnt do anything.
While pirate definitely didn´t play good in this – as the others also made some greater and lesser mistakes in that pull – i think the majority of the negative winds pirate gets, comes from the situation on how he handled it afterwards and somewhat on the things he said beforehand.
In the latest guild meeting he was quite fond on situations that occured like this one. "Toughen up" "As a mage you need to downrank spells […] having the ability to rescue the group and overcome the difficulties." Not a quote and quote but a rough summary and what he said.
Clips appearing with "Retail is acutally so easy, and so is classic ofc." "Iam a mythic raider" "I worked at blizzard btw." "I have 20 years of experience."
Saying "I literally couldn´t have done anything" in this situation is just a blatant lie by pirate. Also taking zero accountability is also a no go. Saying "the call was made to run, so i run" also having a bit of an aftertaste. I think when someone calls to run in classic HC, 9/10 people would interpret it as "Ok, i´ll try to help the team while we get our bottom to safety/the entrance"
After Tyler wanted to have some clearification and called pirate and yam in discord for a call pirate also didn´t show himself in the best spotlight. Pirate was able to cover his story of the event and he instantly left as yam was to address him; twice
Grubby did a great analysis; a bit more of the psychological side to the players which are missing in somer other videos from different Contentcreators. Tone mattered, comms mattered. Everything was a bit over the place on this one. Everyone could have done something better.
The big issue for me is how pirate handled it afterwards. "I literally couldn´t have done anything". Gaslighting the group with "You didn´t payed attention to the group ressources" "I had no mana" while still had ~550 with managem + robe it would have been ~2000
As Grubby correctly said: "Mistakes are okay!" and they really are. They´re part of the experience in almost everything. But doing mistakes and not getting from your high ego saying instantly "I did everything right" is just a poor move.
Thanks for the Video Grubby!
Sara… the real hero of this story
Rogue is combat spec, he isn't going to use backstab
I actually saw this on Ozy's stream
RIP Sara
Grubby, since you said you wanted to learn.. I wanted to add some of my take.. as yours seems the most rational I've seen so far, and the biggest thing missing from OnlyFangs.. it's like watching noobs playing, even the analysis/breakdowns.. its quite shocking tbh.. perhaps its just rage bait content.
PirateSoftware could have done a lot to 'hail mary' the situation, but it's annoying to see people dogpile on him when there's context around it.
> Their last instance, where they made the same calls deeper in the instance – run > dummy > and everyone left group and somehow survived and got ported out
> The same happened here, yet half way through the calls they expect a different outcome? And all of a sudden we expect the mage to be making plays? [Dont get me wrong, plays were there to be made.. but if a call is made the same as before, and you do something different.. you're rolling the dice on death]
> Protecting his character and enchanting stuff
> These players are severely underskilled, and as such you would and should have a lack of confidence in them [You can only quarterback and throw those hail marys, so long as you have confidence in the group, in the calls etc.. essentially that your blockers will let you block]
> This was the comms "we got 2 just focus this > the boss is coming too watch out (already aggrod)> I got shield wall > run run run run run > run and target dummy > just run > kill dogs > .. yeah target dummy > kill dogs > Ozy are you fine > [Pirate Blizzards the boss and dog..dog dies] > last stand > any grenades > heal me > boss on me – bearform > just run > i can health pot > Pirate why are you walking bro.."
> Dealing with Rogue attacking him mid run/blame shifting
The question isn't could he have done something to save these garbage players, it's did he follow the calls, did he add to the catastrophe, was the calls and action consistent with their previous runs.. and i think for that – I'd give him a pass.
The druid is a total liability, rank1 or not.. not a classic player – no awareness at best, and was the main reason for the deaths.. butt pulling a pack of mobs should result in death. While they were attacking the first pull, they additionally pulled another patrol, the boss, another patrol, and another pack of adds.. i mean, thats comedy hour..
> The first mistake is not having a plan and understanding the dungeon from the tank(and seemingly noone else).. clueless people, not knowing what there doing..
I've been almost all the classes, but primarily Warrior and Mage main from back in the day.. but moreso, everywhere I've been I've been blessed with some of the best rogues that have played the game.. they are as valuable as a warrior(tank) and even more than a mage.. but everyone knows how to play a mage, but it seems there are no decent PVE rogues around..
A tank is expected to be the most experienced and understanding, but a good rogue is in the same boat. They are really the co-shot caller, almost always you should be using them as a target of target to know who to dps.
> The rogue should have had the awareness to be on the lookout for the patrols including the boss(Like a tanks second set of eyes)
> In instances I see an insufficient amount of CC for a hardcore game.. its actually kinda nuts
> Warriors try to collect what they can, warriors prio threat on melee targets (basics)
> Rogues engage a target, and the ranged dps should be automatically habitually following the rogues target.. its going to be a caster.. they are usually the most dangerous, have the highest dps output, and meanwhile the warrior uses his plate mitigation, demo etc and health for the melee and to build threat on them. The rogue can completely shut down a caster, mitigate all the damage generally stun, kick, gouge etc.. it will fall over.
> The rogue attacked the dogs instead of the caster, resulting in split dps (noob level stuff) and the caster dying slower(and didn't die), and the rogue needing heals reducing the priests mana pool and the warrior not being able to properly focus on the instance. You missed it, but as they were running away Pirate fireblasted the caster after his wasted blizz, the rogue should have killed the mage, made a call, and worst cast scenario used their throwing weapon to finish it off.. or tap it and sprint.
> An aware rogue would have been able to make a call on the pat, the dogs can spot stealth so you cant sap them or anything, but he could have vanished and distracted to stall them out and just make them wait to buy those few extra seconds before the boss came
> The rogue could have alternatively vanished and distracted the boss to stop it
> The rogue could have vanished and distracted the 2nd patrol on their run out – but instead chose to start sh1t with PirateS.
Any of the 3 above elements would have helped to stop the adds, buy some time and save the run.
> Instead his immediate reaction is to panic and made a run run run call.. but has no experience or game awareness to be doing this.. he should just shut his mouth and learn, and let the tank make the calls.. you cannot have 3 people who dont know what they are doing making contradictory calls and expect a good outcome.
> Rogue could have finished the mage, and sprinted back to group
> Rogue could have blinded the brute (or the ranged caster from the last pack they pulled)
> Rogue could have sticky glued any of the mobs(prio Brute)
> Rogue could have gouged the brute
> Instead the Rogue blinded the boss who was immune
> Rogue could have stunlocked the boss
> Rogue could have tanked the boss or the brute with evasion
> Rogue could have disarmed the boss/brute
> Rogue could have had crippling poison on his weapon to slow mobs by 70% and kited
> Rogue could have solo'd any of those mobs and simply lips
> Rogue Could have warned the Druid not to jump into the 2nd pack of mobs
> Rogue could have meleed the low health dogs, instead of just watching them running around
Like that Geronimo hunter who cant use traps or figure out how to pull, or the bean incident who let the druid die who was getting a mage to do drak while their is a hunter in their group.. your goal to start with is MC or raiding instances.. that requires hunters to pull, and rogues to distract to stop patrols where you want them.. you should be practicing those skills, and awareness of whats behind you and eventually not standing in stuff.. but yeah, at this stage random pugs playing on a trackpad sounds more reliable.
Whilst the druid deserved to die due to being so underskilled, the rogue is the real issue here.. running alongside the mobs pretending to help, while making wrong calls, really not doing anything when SOOOOO many options were available, starting a fight and continuing a fight during an instance when people were trying to escape.. they say Pirate panicked, but they shouted to run as they did with the previous run and he did the same thing – yet in hindsight they and others expected a different outcome, yet you have a useless rogue.. who starts chewing on his arm, making wrong and contradictory calls without the experience to do so, attacking another creator during the run (whilst doing nothing himself).. yeah, I'm not having any of that. The rogue basically put them from a 4 man, down to a 3 man.
I'd say the Rogue is either a total Troll, or was trying to deflect from his call when he said to run. That doesn't absolve Pirate from underplaying his hand, heck.. spam sheep on the brut, while finishing off the mage would have left the boss with some dogs and a sheep.. lol .. but frankly from listening to the calls, and the lack of awareness or skillset from the others.. I kinda think he did the expected.. you talk sh1t to someone, dont expect them to put their character on the line. Heck I've seen so much worse, without any of the hate.. just laughs.
TLDR: Rogues are gods in 5 mans, but I guess there are no decent ones to show people that they are as good, in fact could have been better than a mage in this crisis.. just not this Troll Rogue.
someone said "pirates chat is omega wholesome if you got banned its probaby your fault"
might be wholesome but its a fake wholesomeness where everyone that goes against the state is getting censored its like living in north korea
Grubby saying the rogue should be nicer with his comms is complete bullshit. The "be nice at the office" rhetoric in team sports/games is Clown Reality.
You do your duty to the team no matter what the situation is and you are aware of all your tools. Pirate sold his squad out big time. I'd never want this guy on my team in any sport or any video game. His character was tested and he was an actual "Gamer" here (Peter Pan syndrome, narcissism with no accountability) – not a human.
max level blizzard to blow all his mana… cancel… not using mana gem… refusing to help and kite with the group…
He failed the prisoner dilemma big time
Awful person
his average playing compared to his level at that moment of this video was very nicely summerised by his words once he arrived in og later "they deserved to die"
good analysis
You gained a new subscriber for your inspiring and admirable considered judgements of your speech!
You should try to get R1 in retail. Pirate is no mage and you are no mage either.
Dude, his name is pirate and he's not a mugivara, what else did you expect hime to do?)
People arguing about not running behind the mob sometimes while someone pulls a pack in the paused video doing exactly that is hilarious.
Exactly what you expect.
So Pirate wanted them to die i guess but isnt admiting to it which makes him a snake
I get that people are frustrated when you have anyone in your party die while playing hardcore, and you just wanna play a game of blame-share.
But I can't really fault Pirate here like everyone else does. They were told to run, Pirate runs, tried to do a Blizzard for a bit but then continued running.
Why are they still trying to fight it when they were told to run? And if they decide they want to fight it, call out immediately "No wait we can take this".
End of story. Communicate better next time instead and this wouldn't happen, don't ask someone to apologize for doing what they were instructed to do.
Grubby the best take of all the reactions i have seen by far
Honestly Grubby has the best take on this.
That's why you are Grubby, a legend in gaming, one of the best W3 players to ever do it, while he's just a random QA guy!
He did that on purpose. He sat at the exit burning Mana on ice armor and blinks while smiling. Pirate is a punk
always love your level headed takes grubby
Definitely the best take of the situation.
How is telling the healer to heal him a mistake? That was clearly call #2. What am missing here?
The agro radius in dire maul is easy as cake, becauae the ogres are so big is easy to spot them.
grubby seems like a good guy
You have to give tanks a break because there's way too much pressure on them and they can't tolerate dumb DPS that pulls extra mobs or doesn't wait for the tank to pull the mobs behind the corner. Of course the tank has to be assertive to the point of being a dickhead to tell DPS what to do. Being a tank means you will be hated and you are also the first to die. So yeah they deserve all the breaks they can get.
Pirates EGO is next level and the most frustrating part about this whole thing.
34:15 Very true point, but to be fair, the personal attack came into play AFTER Pirate had begun roaching. He did not frost nova in the first place, placed ONE suboptimal and half-hearted blizzard, ignored his robe cooldown and mana gem, and simply ran away 'without' looking back. That's when Yamato started attacking him. I'm not saying attacking him was the right call, but the attack was prompted by Pirate's initial recklessly selfish behavior. So his initial roaching and suboptimal play would not fall under this influence of "put on the defensive, thus playing on a lower-than-average skill level".
Grubby You missed one very important part in this clip (I think Asmon is only one that noticed it). Druid was doing heal on second ramp when they were running and afterwards he did a jump down the ramp that actualy pulled another pack on the right side of ramp (it is visible after with a frostbolt going on him from end of the screen). And that pack actualy made Sara die and in my opinion changed their chances of getting out of it alive to 0%. its in 18:03 on Your clip when frostolt flies (You missed it because You opened notepad).
Its like people demand some giga chad behavior from Pirate. Meanwhile he clicks his spells.
This has to be hands down the best and most neutral analysis about this situation, it's great to have Grubby playing wow, I hope I meet him someday out there.
Of all the reacts, this one is the best. Fair and productive analysis. Grubby has become one of my favorite streamers. Cheers Grubby